I wrote this piece in July of ’07. It garnered 70 comments and some grousy updates on my part. (You can read the original here.)
I’m reprinting the post with a clear comment thread because I feel the sentiment I expressed in this piece is even more true now than ever: there are thousands of evangelicals who would give a serious look at mainline churches, traditional worship and the riches of Protestant heritage IF some good brothers and sisters could recognize our journey and meet us somewhere halfway along the path.
It seems that at the moment there is the most interest in the broader, deeper more serious heritage of Protestantism and a growing discontent with worshiptainment, there is a strong prejudice against evangelicals within those communities that could reach out to them. Evangelicalism needs what Protestantism has always done right…..at least in those places where they still remember what was right all along.
Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans….
______________
Mainline churches….we’re having a moment here.
Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Disciples of Christ…do you know what I mean? We’re having a moment, and it’s slipping right by.
What moment?
We’re having a moment when thousands of evangelicals are getting a bellyful of the shallow, traditionless, grown up youth group religion that’s taken over their pastor’s head and is eating up their churches.
It’s a moment when people are asking if they want to hear praise bands when they are 70…or if they will even be allowed in the building when they are 70. It’s a moment when the avalanche of contemporary worship choruses has turned into one long indistinquishable commercial buzz. It’s a moment when K-Love is determining what we sing in church and that’s not a good thing.
It’s a moment when some people are wondering if their children will ever know the hymns they knew or will ever actually hold a Bible in their hand at church again. It’s a moment when a lot of people are pretty certain if they hear the words “new,” “purpose” or “seeker” one more time, they may appear on the evening news for an episode of “church rage.”
It’s a moment when significant numbers of people have heard the same ten sermon series so many times they could fill in for the pastor on short notice. It’s a moment when many people would actually like to see a section of the congregation who are over 50 and not trying to look under 30.
It’s a moment that- believe it or not- some people actually want to go to something that looks like church as they remember it, see a recognizable pastor, hear a recognizable sermon, participate in the Lord’s Supper, experience some reverence and decorum, and leave feeling that, in some ways, it WAS a lot like their mom and dad’s church. It’s a moment when reinventing everything may not be as sweet an idea as we were told it was.
It’s a moment when the baby boomer domination of evangelicalism is showing signs of cracking. Some younger people actually want to hear theology. They aren’t judging everything by how seekers evaluate it or what Rick Warren would say about it.
Yes, my mainline friends, we’re having a moment here. You can see it all around the edges of evangelicalism. It’s there and it’s real. It isn’t easy or automatic, but it’s there. And it is sad to realize that at the very time so many are looking for what you have, you’re mostly squandering the moment entirely.
Your churches could be taking in thousands of evangelicals. That’s right. Those recognizably “churchy” churches of yours, with the Christian year, the Biblically rich liturgy, the choir robes, the still-occasionally used hymnals and the multi-generational, slightly blended worship services, could be taking in thousands of evangelicals.
Of course, you’d have to want them. You’d have to, in many ways, meet them halfway or more. You’d need to talk to them as younger evangelicals, not dangerous fundamentalists. You’d have to reconsider how important it is to you to keep homosexual grievances constantly on the front burner. You’d have to start acting like Biblical morality meant something. You’d have to stop acting as if being mainline is a game where you wait to see how fast the membership dies off.
It’s a moment when you need to speak the language of people who want to hear the Bible; a moment when preachers need to preach mature, Biblical evangelical messages.
Those younger evangelicals are ready for your appreciation of tradition, your more balanced theological method, your commitment to multi-generational churches and your more substantial appreciation of justice issues.
But they aren’t ready for the things that have emptied so many of your churches. They will never come if things remain the same. Much needs to change and should change.
You need to communicate, and you need to go back to your roots. It’s frustratingly ironic to know that when many of us are longing for a church that has the things we cannot find in evangelicalism, you have so many of those very things every Sunday. But what you don’t have is the willingness to come back to the center of evangelicalism where people who love the Bible and take it seriously can find a home with you.
You’ve made it clear that you want those on the left. And evangelicals have made it clear that they are not going to accommodate those who want tradition. We’re having a moment here, if you can stop and see it, who knows what could happen? Will your own churches divide in order to meet evangelicals on the road? Or will the moment go by, a “might have been,” that never was to be?
The moment will come and it will go. Right now, the moment is upon all of us.
“Being a former RC, I will never go back to repetitive prayer, stand up, sit down, recite, stand up, kneel down, recite.”
I not a former or current RC but when I ask those who are and they can’t tell me WHY they do these things I want to ask why attend? But since these are in-laws I mostly hold my thoughts to myself.
I also know folks who get excited about this style of worship. But they seem to be a minority.
Let me say that, for me, the issue really isn’t about “high worship” at all. I respect many different forms of worship and have participated in all types of services that were truly worshipful because they were centered around the Gospel, filled with meaningful participation by the congregation, and respectful of both tradition and the newness that the Spirit brings. Contemporary evangelicalism’s problem when it comes to worship is not just about style, it is about substance.
It is also about elevating program above people. I would much rather meet with the small Baptist congregation in Vermont where I started my ministry, where there was truly a sense of community and neighborliness and God’s involvement in day to day life and relationships than I would with any suburban megachurch where the whole concept is about meeting the consumers’ desires through the latest and best programs and methods.
One of the churches bought the moving lights that throw different color light designs on the walls and can even be set to move in time with the music or at different points in the music and was used in Sunday morning services not just special ones. — Guy from Knoxville
I read that and the first words that came to mind were “Disco or Techno?”
The second was “Ravers for Christ” (dook dook dook DOOK dook dook dook DOOK)…
…and Communion… what’s that?… — Guy from Knoxville
Ecstasy for the Rave?
I am always amused by the people who say we should worship as the early Christians did. Rarely do they go to the trouble of learning what that means.
It’s not hard to find out. Read the Didache, read Justin Martyr’s Apology, read Irenaeus. All describe first and second-century Christian worship in some detail. You will find it does not even remotely resemble what is done in most Evangelical churches today.
Ah, thanks for that, Michael. Sounds like there is indeed a lot more involved than for the music minister (which was the closest I could think of on this side).
What is involved sounds to me like the functions of an acolyte or especially a deacon, so why the emphasis on the music over the prayers/scriptural readings? Of course, please understand I’m talking from a perspective here of (1) small-town Ireland rather than America (2) Roman Catholic and (3) like the Dara Ó Briain joke about how you can tell the Protestants from the Catholics when attending a wedding for a mixed marriage – when it comes to the hymns, the Protestants know *all* the verses, *and* they sing them!
“Why do people care if a sect or denomination dies off?”
The denomination I was raised in still calls itself Southern Baptist, but it is no longer recognizable as the church it was 25 years ago. Why do I care? Because it means that either we had it tragically wrong and have just now gotten it right, or we had it right and are now getting it wrong.
The issue is simple, at least for me. Truth doesn’t change, God doesn’t change, yet my denomination has done nothing but change… change… change… in all directions all at once. At what point are we going to get it right? How could we possibly know if we did?
I’m willing to concede that the faith I was raised with was false, but there is no indication that the new faith and practices are in any way superior.
I spent 20 years not paying any attention to what the evangelical world was up to. When I recently took a good hard look, I was shocked to see how much it has changed, how fast it changed, and that it is people of my generation who seem primarily responsible for this. “What the hell happened?” sums up my reaction.
So, the death of a denomination’s distinctives indicates that either it didn’t have the truth to begin with, or it is now running off the rails. Saying that God “used” them is of no comfort when faced with the fact that either I was lied to my entire childhood, or the denomination I loved has replaced right worship and right doctrine for fads and Wal*Mart Jesus.
Truth doesn’t change. Yet my denomination isn’t just changing, it’s morphing into something unrecognizable — and no, you can’t say that it still holds to the “essentials” when it can’t even make up its mind what the “essentials” even are.
The church is the pillar and foundation of truth. That means that *I* am not. The *church* is, and a church that can’t define, explain, or hold to what it believes is incapable of preserving the gospel. The best it can hope for is an incomplete faith, and I have serious doubts that an incomplete faith is a saving faith.
So yeah, the demise of a church bothers me. If a church teaches the entire gospel as once delivered, the gates of hell would not prevail against it — the church’s doctrine and worship would withstand anything, including Rod Parsley. Yet my old church’s doctrine and worship are flailing all over the place with no indication of ever landing on anything solid.
iMonk -
This is to me THE issue of the next 25 years on the Protestant tradition side of things.
The experiment of evangelicalism could end up reviving the mainline churches to the greater good of the whole People of God if … if …
as you say, the mainline churches will allow it to happen AND the Evangelicals come not interested in setting the agenda based upon their past experience.
Boy I pray for something like this.
I wish I had time right now to tell my story, because the small evangelical Anglican church we moved to from a close-to-mega-evangelical Baptist church did things just right.
Rob, do you live in Corbin,KY or near there? That description reminds me of a large church on a hill as you start down the highway from the first I75 N Corbin
exit. Just wondered…. had an interesting conversation with the music guy last Monday before Christmas. I’m a PT rep for a pipe organ company so I visit a lot of different churches and play for an SBC here in Knoxville.
Which is precisely why I am disenchanted with the Worship-As-Entertainment format so prevalent today.
Way to misunderstand what I was saying, then jumping to crazy assumptions. My point is not that I don’t learn ANYTHING from sermons. It’s that sermons don’t hold a candle to me actively participating in worship through prayer, confession, Communion and so on, especially when I’m rarely hearing anything I haven’t read or heard 100 times before anyway.
Try addressing the actual argument rather than some strawman version of it. And if you’re not sure what I’m getting at, ask some questions before running off at the keyboard and utterly missing the point.
Another problem. I can take 5 different guys and listen to them “exposit” on a passage and end up with 5 different interpretations or points of emphasis that often contradict each other on key portions. Who’s right? Frankly, this is exhausting to me after 20+ years of doing this. Just someone’s opinion? It’s ALL someone’s opinion. One guy is coming from a background at Dallas Theological Seminary, another from Talbot School of Theology, one more from Asbury and finally an entry from Covenant Theological Seminary. There will be much agreement but also much disagreement and it’s all based on the opinions and presuppositions of the architects of the various schools of thought.
That is, unless you can point me to some golden tablets where the Holy Spirit cleared all of this confusion up for us when doing expository teaching.
I don’t know…probably the same difference between singing “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee” with a nice organ or classical instrumentation versus singing it with kazoos and a xylophone to the tune of the Sesame Street theme. One comes off as majestic and worshipful and the other as something short of that.
Not sure what this has to do with anything I said.
Precisely the problem I’m having with much of contemporary evangelicalism.
And this is exactly why I’m feeling more drawn to traditional styles and Eucharist-oriented worship. Right now, the current trend feels very “me” oriented.
And please explain, with good sources, what “New Testament” church worship looks like according to you.
I detest this sort of presumption.
Why ritual? (This question/idea has been challenging me most of the morning.)
Part of it is that we are built to enjoy knowing what happens. Just look at how little children enjoy hearing the same story, time after time. And woe be to the parent who tries to change even one word.
In the life of Christians, I think of ritual more as the bones of our faith. And it connects us more easily to other believers. It’s a common foundation, whether it is having 3 readings of the Bible before the sermon or having two hymns and the collection before the homily.
But, we individual Christians, need to use our muscles that are connected to the bones. That is how and where we grow in holiness and toward both God and man.
Either muscle or bone alone is useless to a living person, both are needed to run the good race.
I hate to have to delete a post to make a point. Let me repeat my point one more time: If all you have to say about this conversation is that everyone wants to be “catered to” please don’t comment.
“You’d have to stop acting as if being mainline is a game where you wait to see how fast the membership dies off.”
So true, a First United Methodist church formed 118 years ago in my area just closed its doors. The church’s congregation dwindled down to 25 people, most of which were 70+, and could no longer pay to maintain the building.
http://www.tricityherald.com/kennewick_pasco_richland/story/427380.html
We have two PCUSA churches in our community with a combined attendance of less than 15. Heartbreaking.
Guess what’s growing into a new facility in Indy? Because of evangelicals coming over?
http://www.holytrinityindy.org/ParishInformation/106thandShelborne/Newestbuildingphotos/tabid/736/Default.aspx
My apologies…
“All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.” – George Orwell (1903 – 1950), “Animal Farm”
I have been part of a lot of different churches that used very different models of meeting and find the real problem to be that for the most part no one is listening in any of the various settings.
People seem to have it all figured out on how to “do church”. If you really find a group that affirms your own assumtions or if you don’t really care you can be quite happy, but if you happen to see things differently your choices are really just between the archetecture of the building you sit in while being frustrated on Sunday morning and the age of the stuborn tradition.
What I am really looking for in a church is a continuous “dialogue”; one where we look to each other, history, and scripture to decide how we meet; where correction and adjustments are expected; where we admit that for the most part we are just trying to do our best.
“I wish I had time right now to tell my story, because the small evangelical Anglican church we moved to from a close-to-mega-evangelical Baptist church did things just right.”
Same here. AMiA church. Big breath of fresh air.
Please tell the stories guys. It would be better than where things seem to be going
As a Recovering Calvary Chapelite…
Wow -That ought to light it up. But I digress.
I was raised in several “mainline” denominational churches as my mother dragged me through various churches.. Lutheran (my baptism), Methodist, Assembly of God, etc, and despite deciding not to go once I could be stubborn enough to convince my Mother the battle wasn’t worth the fight – learned a deep appreciation of God, His Son and a fairly good catechism that laid out the basics. But oh, how the idea of the liturgy seems to a 14yr old and well – in the late 70′s – seemed as relevant as horn rimed glasses and a short white sleeved shirt with a butch hair cut. So I quit the denomination at 14.
At 16 – I “was saved” in a Calvary Chapel – in California – and without the details to bog down, first truly appreciated what it meant to walk with Jesus in a daily connected relationship. I thank Chuck Smith and all that denomination has done for that reason – but, like most Calvary Chapelites, one of two things I think eventually occurs:
1. If they really are honest, there sets in a disillusionment of the whole “we are the on-fire believers” syndrome. Life catches up, sh*t happens and the only answers are “Brother, you just need to read and pray”. Eventually I think after the emotionalism and 5 services a week on the evangelical Harvest Crusade bus you burn out, or lose speed.
2. If you remain in the denomination, you move from Calvary to Calvary, as a safe haven of those that truly believe the right way. The “on-fire” syndrome remains and through you might have burned out long ago you move from church to church looking to reinvigorate or recapture the experience.
Ironically, today at 44, I find myself gravitating toward the traditions of my youth. Longing for substance, wanting the experience of the Holy Supper, thirsty for the liturgy that formed my basic understanding of how I should approach God. I’ve become what imonk calls himself, a “Reformed Christian” and would like truth to reign over experience here.
Enter the dilemma – and Michael – I so agree with you – I want the traditions of my youth back. I’ve visited a Keller PCA church plant in Southern CA, and found it refreshing, and surprisingly relevant. I was hopeful. I haven’t found my way back to a Lutheran church, but may try one. But the dilemma is that would it not be for the thirst and “quickening” of my sprit via God’s – how would I know where to go? Mainline denominations criticize the Calvary types – but at least the idea of outreach remains. I understand the theological underpinnings of how Calvinism plays into the idea of evangelicalism, but wow – I haven’t seen a Lutheran or PCA ask me to come to visit since I was 14? Mom?
Anna A
“Why ritual?”
Ritual is a memory aid. And since much of the flock for 1000s of years could not read or write the ritual allowed them to learn and understand the story. Most “mainline” churches with stained glass windows have a storyline in the windows. And also in the entire design of the building. To help the congregation learn and remember the Gospel.
Plus most of us are wired to feel comfortable when we know what is going to happen “next”. Ritual in the order of a service makes it a more comfortable place than the “world”.
It strikes me reading through these comments, and reflecting on these issues, that perhaps part of the appeal of the “worshiptainment” is that we enjoy new and exciting and interesting things when we we are being entertained, when we are passively “consuming” media and entertainment, but I find that in Divine Service [God serving us- as we Lutherans like to call the worship service], the order of the liturgy is a true aid to worship of Christ, without the constant distraction of wondering what is going to happen next. There is a great benefit to order in worship, and ritual, or liturgy as I prefer to call it, provides the framework or outline for teaching and preaching the Gospel.
The short version of my story sounds much like piratemonk’s. Grew up moderately high church Methodist, came to Christ in the Assemblies of God, burned out, and have been in a gradual shift away from that treadmill and back toward something resembling the traditions of my childhood.
The longer version if anyone is interested is here:
Part I
Part II
There are other posts at that site that might go into various details of my struggle.
The bottom line is, I really do love God and long to be close to Him, more focused on Him and what He wants from me and wants to do in me. I want to not just read and learn His word in a theological or academic sense, but to ingest it and meditate on it. And the more I long for this connection and desire to know Him better, the less I feel like I’m able to get there from here in the contemporary evangelical realm I’ve been in the last 20+ years. Hence, my frustration.
I haven’t seen a Lutheran or PCA ask me to come to visit since I was 14?
I can’t speak to the PCA side of this, but where I grew up, I think most Lutherans would feel like asking was:
1. Somehow implying that their way of doing things is better than yours
2. Would be too much pressure (a la the way many evangelicals and Pentecostals might force an invitation).
I have no doubt that if someone mentions that they’d like to attend a Lutheran service, a warm invitation would be extended. I think many Lutherans are genuinely surprised when people express a desire to visit. After all, they’ve got a reputation for being old fuddy-duddies. (I can say all this because I was raised Lutheran, and even though I’ve spent many years in other kinds of churches, I still am a Lutheran. “You can take the girl out of the church, but you can’t take the church out of the girl,” I think…
)
Knoxville Guy and iMonk:
I do not mind being taken out to the woodshed. Just remember I came from a tradition that tells you to submit or we’ll kick you out and damn you to hell while we’re at it. So, Knoxville I know exactly how you feel.
Also moderated was my testimony of having been a worship leader in the past. The explanation of what worship leaders do to prepare to lead worship is not appropriate for this thread but it is the reason why I said what I said. I am sorry I can not explain it to you here.
Feel free to email me if you really want to discuss it further at the woodshed.
DDLDJC@comcast.net
i only moderated part of one post
Piratemonk, since when is the Assembly of God mainstream???
Why ritual? In his book, Letters to Malcolm, C.S. Lewis talks about what he calls the “liturgical fidget,” and talks about how he felt that when things are always changing that it actually distracts from worship. That was definitely my experience toward the end of my stay with the A of G. It was impossible to really worship when I was worried somebody jumping up and down and waiving a flag around might accidently hit me with it, or somebody who decided to be drunk in the spirit did crash into me, or somebody else decided I needed to be slain in the spirit and tried to knock me over…. Lewis also said that he thought he could make use of any form of worship at all – as long as it was always the same. I definitely came to crave that, but I have too many theological differences with the Catholic Church to be Catholic, and the PCUSA, Episcopalians, etc are just too cotton pickin’ liberal for me. It almost seems like some of them take great pride in not believing what the Bible says, and that their religion is purely cultural to them.
Just discovered this site through a friend. Grew up Southern Baptist, married a Lutheran and went to his church during our marriage, but became increasingly cynical and disbelieving. Post divorce: more cynical, but nostalgic for the “fairy tales” I once believed. Started going to a Baptist church out of loneliness – chose that one because the pastor really did seem to be a good shepherd, always down in the trenches where the people were hurting the most. A team came from an English church that had been experiencing a “charismatic renewal” and I heard contemporary worship music for the first time- not as entertainment but as something gentle, loving, contemplative- and it became the music of my heart. The hard, wounded places in my heart began to melt. For 10 years after that, was part of a big (not mega, but wanna-be) church that was contemporary Mennonite/charismatic (but not overly charismaniac)/evangelical/ let’s go out and save the world, starting with our neighbors. Things got a little out of hand with some of the leadership always wanting to be on the “cutting edge” of Christian ministry, and many of us left to find other church homes. Some of my friends were surprised to find happy homes in “mainline” churches; others found churches that seemed to have some of the best of what we missed without the worst of what we didn’t miss. I have to agree with much of the earlier criticism of the contemporary church movements- they can quickly become just as dogmatic and wedded to their own peculiar version of “form over substance”- they just have unique ways of letting you know the acceptable form to be “slain in the spirit” or whatever the theological flavor of the day. But, I have had incredible worship experiences in a multitude of settings, with every conceivable form of music. I’m not talking about “wow that feels good” experiences (though they did) but the times when I was in the presence of God almighty, worshiping at his feet, receptive to His love, healing, correction, instruction, infilling and strengthening. Such experiences have happened in one on one discussions; small groups; mainline churches; charismatic/evangelical churches; gospel concerts of every genre; even alone, just me and my guitar and God. Now, “church” includes Sunday mornings with a small group- many of us “refugees” from the larger group that imploded; a monthly CSLewis society (quite ecumenical); lots of phone calls with a friend who is ill and usually confined to “Bedside Baptist”; impromptu gatherings and e-mail exchanges, with other Christians; and internet communities. And my precious books. Am currently re-reading ‘The Healing Presence” by Leanne Payne. One of her chapter titles I think is pertinent to this discussion: “Imagery and Symbol:”The Symbol Really Matters”‘ I am hungry for both form and substance; symbolism really does matter; but the essential symbols can be expressed in many different forms.
I’m picking up a theme here that to which I can relate. When I was a pastor in a “Community” church–non-denominational, contemporary, etc. we were known as the “gracious” church in contrast to many of the legalistic and unloving traditional churches in our area. People came to be healed, to taste the Gospel for Christians for the first time, and to get away from the pressure to perform and conform all the time. It was a breath of fresh air to them. However, over the years, I have seen many people leave and go back to their various traditions because there was not enough lasting substance in our a-historical, non-traditional, anti-ritual, lite-theological church. The contemporary evangelical church as I have known it may help people get their feet wet in God’s grace, but it cannot teach them to swim in deep waters.
No I live in Texas.
Perhaps those who have difficulty with the notion of “ritual” might find it a bit easier to swallow if one speaks of “holy habits”. Just like brushing one’s teeth before going to bed – it may seem dull and repetitive, but it prevents cavities. I’m certain there are deeper, more theological-sounding ways to express the idea, but if developing a habit of doing holy things will help prevent cavities in my soul, then I’m all for it.
Well said, Chaplain Mike. It’s in the deep waters that contemporary lite fails- and there’s too little patience for those going through the dark nights of the soul, including those with chronic illnesses. But I did get my first grown-up taste of the healing waters in one of those non-traditional churches, and so many other churches I have visited seem -at least initally-so dry in comparison. Though still waters run deep, and there may yet be life there. By the way, the anti-ritual thing is just a pose- we apparently have a deep human hunger for ritual, for it seems that even the most free-wheeling of Pentecostal churches develops its unique ways of being “in the spirit.” And woe unto the poor soul who is unique in a different way.
…there’s too little patience for those going through the dark nights of the soul, including those with chronic illnesses.
Amen to this. I’d add other kinds of difficulties and losses, like divorce, the death of a spouse (etc.). None of the evangelical/charismatic churches that I’ve attended knew what to do with this stuff, and I doubt things have changed much since I’ve been away from those churches.
My family has attended the same evangelical church for 15 years. Five years ago, I was drawn to start worshiping on Friday mornings at an Anglican Church that has recently aligned itself with the Reformed Episcopal Church. I see aspects of both churches that I really like.
In our evangelical church I like the sense of family we have. Most of my friends are at this church, and we’ve watched each other’s children grow up over the years. I like the vigor and joy of the singing (even if the praise band drums are a little loud), and I like the occasional hymns we sing, too. I learn a great deal from the 40-minute sermons, and I really like the change to weekly Communion that occurred this fall. Our Sunday School Classes are challenging and fun as we discuss possible interpretations of different passages of Scripture, and we also pray for each other at the beginning of class.
But the Anglo-Catholic Church I attend on Friday mornings is my true joy. The absence of singing and the emphasis on Scripture, prayer, and Communion takes me deeper and deeper into my faith. Between Morning Prayer and Holy Communion we read five fairly lengthy Scripture passages, OT, NT and Psalms for Morning Prayer, and Epistle and Gospel readings for Holy Communion, besides the fact that the vast majority of the liturgy is straight Scripture. We use the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, and I love the Creeds and the ancient prayers like the “Te Deum Laudamus” and the “Venite.” During our prayer time, we all take turns praying by name for those who are ill and in need. And when my kids and I attend Holy Days services or the very occasional Sunday service, we are welcomed with open arms. The church is very small — about 25 people each Sunday — but it’s a warm, family place with a good balance of younger families and older folks. This little Anglican Church has a prayer blog, a Free Teen Guitar Class outreach, and also served Christmas dinner for the older folks in their community, in addition to heading up ecumenical Thanksgiving and Stations of the Cross services each year. I thoroughly enjoy teaching my children about the church year and am thrilled that there And I’m quite content to take the best of each one for now. My husband isn’t “into” liturgy and prefers the evangelical church as that is what he knows, but he allows me and the kids to attend the Anglican services which I appreciate very much.
So I am living what you wrote about, Michael, with one foot firmly in each tradition, willing to learn and grow in both the evangelical and the mainline traditions.
To each his own. But as for me…I am absolutely desparate to get hold of the real ‘truth’ while the getting is possible. God is REAL. He fellowships with those who SEEK Him. The GOSPEL is His. SALVATION is HIS. The CHURCH is HIS. All creation is HIS. The ‘short work’ He will do in the world is HIS. Why, then…can’t we just ask God what is the right way to worship and serve?
Folks:
While I am really happy for everyone to read and post, let me make a suggestion: if you don’t relate to the discussion we’re having….don’t participate. Please. Contribute on posts that do interest you.
thanks
ms
My wife attended Holy Trinity, Indianapolis, on Christmas Eve–huge crowd, SRO. She didn’t even sit down. She knows a woman there who said that even Greek Orthodox have their “C & E” members–many of whom were there that night for the first service in the new church. My wife noted that as those who had prepared for Communion with fasting, etc., were going forward, others who hadn’t prepared were talking, making noise, as they left the service. She did like the worship and appreciates the new facility. She returned to our UMC for later worship.
Call to arms! I keep hearing how so many others besides myself are feeling this huge disatisfaction and emptiness in their churches. Depending on the local church, some mainline churches may have an answer to this, many don’t, and IMonk says that more of them should start waking up.
But what are we, as evangelicals, to do in the meantime? I’ve tried the going from church to church routine more than once in my college years. There were a few years going to college, where I tried attending up to 15 different churches in one year. There’s always going to be problems and you eventually have to settle down somewhere in order to serve.
So to arms I say! If the teacher or pastor or the worship leader says something that isn’t Biblical, stand up (even if it’s in the middle of a worship service or sermon), read from your Bible, and correct the error. If this means openly contradicting the speaker, don’t bite your tongue, openly contradict him. If the worshiptainment at your church has gotten out of control, start saying so to people at church. Confront the worship leader. Others will probably agree with you anyway, just no one has the courage to say anything. If the church is neglecting a ministry that needs to be filled, start the ministry yourself. If you hear a young person being told that something is against the Bible when it’s not, go correct the corrector (right in front of the young person). It’s time to be men, stop worrying about division (which we’ve self-defeatingly shunned without avoiding it anyway), stop worrying that you might get kicked out of evangelicalism (if you’re at this point, you’re leaving if things don’t change as it is). I say it’s time to stop messing around.
And of course, we should all aggressively do this in the spirit of charity, not judging others, not trying to argue for arguments’ sake or prove any points, but because the situation we’re in is only going to get worse unless we have the guts to start doing something about it. I’ve been taking this approach, it doesn’t make some people at my church happy, it offends others, and all of a sudden I have friends in the church that I never even knew existed. Not that I’ve perfected this either – I’m really really new at this and I’ve already made some mistakes.
J.P. – I think a wiser course would be do meet with your church’s leaders. They have the responsibility for unity and maturity.
I hope you read some of the posts of people who are not just going to one church or church hopping, but are sampling what is there in their area different from their own church. All churches conserve/emphasize some good things and all have lost other things. A more generous geographic sense of church is a good way to say No to consumer church and the church hopping/shopping.
But when you stand up with your Bible to make that judgment, be sure and ask yourself by what authority you are able to tell someone they are off track and how you will avoid having 150 people with Bibles shouting at each other.
peace
ms
“… be sure and ask yourself by what authority you are able to tell someone they are off track and how you will avoid having 150 people with Bibles shouting at each other.”
Touche. You’re right. And I did see that some people are finding more satisfying homes in mainline churches. That’ awesome. I’m still struggling to find a balance. I sense a leadership vacuum at my church right now, and my friends and I are feeling responsible to step in to try to fill it (at our respective churches) even though it seems like we’re a little young for it (20-somethings).
Let’s be careful that we are not creating our kind of “consumerism” here. As if finding a more liturgical or traditional or mainline church will satisfy our “needs” better than a contemporary evangelical church.
Michael, I like something you said on a podcast earlier this year. If we truly want to get away from the consumer church, let us seek to get involved in a church that is poor, that has little to offer in terms of impressing anyone. Let us roll up our sleeves and join them in a common life of living and sharing the Gospel with their neighbors.
Many mainline churches in small communities and inner city settings offer just such an opportunity.
OK, iMonk, next time the mainline churches or something like it comes up, I’ll post a short version of my journey from evangelical baptistic to evangelical mainline and all the little Anglican-Episcopal church we are now at met us where we were at.
I’ll work on it between now and then.
Alrighty then.. 92 posts. And from the counsel of many, the collective wisdom seems to be:
1. Many evangelicals are leaving the church.
2. Main line denominations are not answering the question any better than the evangelical circus
3. While evangelical churches can be easy targets for “worshiptainment” and consumerism, there should be a strong awareness for mainliners to avoid their own version of consumerism.
4. Few mainline churches focus on reaching out to these disillusioned evangelicals, let alone anything outside tradition.
So I have to ask, it seems to me that the first question anybody has to ask is simply, what is the purpose of the church? I mean seriously, if consumerism is the point – then let’s just manage the expectations folks. Let’s develop a menu of options – say, a standardized list of features like say when you purchase a car –
 Base Model – Liturgy,
o Corporate Worship, Confession, Scripture reading, etc.
 Options – (choose any 3)…
o street ministry,
o benevolence ministry,
o children’s ministry,
o Sunday school,
o outreach,
o annual carnival committee or….
Might prevent buyer’s remorse…
Michael,
And now for something completely different…
What I’m seeing all over the internet (and here in this post) is a viscious cycle. Everybody seems to be at a different point on that cycle. People get bored with liturgy and tradition, so they leave for a religion by the seat of the pants… which after a while gets boring, so they leave in search of liturgy and trad…
American Christianity has a problem. There’s no “one anothers” in the Sunday church meeting. We sit on our hands while the professionals “do the ministry.” Yes, we sing with 275 people, but when I’m out sick or something, do the other 274 people miss me? Do I have an affect on anybody else’s life by showing up and going through the motions? NO. We silently eat a wafer and drink from a thimble, but is that communion? I think we so concentrate on God, the first great commandment, that we neglect our neighbors, the second great commandment. People sense this, and can feel the same loneliness and individualism by not even going to church as they do in church.
People want to participate in life, to mean something to other people just as they want others to mean something to them. In 1 Corinthians 12-14 (I would encourage you to read this), Paul is talking about the Sunday meeting, where the people minister to each other as opposed to a “ministry toward/ministered to” division. Paul says, “Let all things be done for edification.” 1 Cor. 14:26. Is sitting on my hands all morning edifying to others? NO.
I think churches need to find ways for the people to minister to one another during the church service. “Checking my problems at the door”, while it sounds good as a way to more purely worship God, only means that my problems will be there – unchanged in any way – when I leave. It’s time for evangelicals – both mainlines and non-denom’s – to rethink church. Not redefine it, but rethink how to apply it the way the bible defines it. What is supposed to happen in the church meeting? The bible tells us. Let’s do it.
Steve S.
I agree with everything that you just wrote. I would change only one thing. “After worship service rather than during”
Those little prepackaged communion wafers with juice just seem so isolating, so starkly individualistic. Sharing a chalice says to me, “we are brothers and sisters in Christ.” I’m not saying that having individual cups is just totally inferior, but that it gives up some good symbolism that I find really meaningful.
One of the chaplains on post (a Methodist) likes to sometimes say “the blood of Christ, shed for you and for me” when he’s presenting the chalice.
Our Army chapel group in Germany, by the way, is mixture of Episcopalians, Lutherans with a few Methodists and Presbyterians who preferred the (usually Episcopalian) liturgy of our service to the praise chorus-filled Protestant service.
The chaplain who usually leads the services is an Episcopal priest who could actually give some of the Southern Baptist pastors I grew up with some serious competition in the pulpit. The liturgy pretty much forces him to fit the sermon into 10-15 minutes, which is usually enough time to say what we can contemplate at once. Even more oddly, I find his sermons to be more Christ-centric and personally challenging than a lot of what I’ve heard in the last few years from “evangelical” pastors back home in Texas! It’s not hard to hear that certain activities I’m not interested in participating in are sinful (and might even cause me to indulge in a bit of smugness); it is hard to hear that we are not treating the poor in a Christ-like manner when I realize that as a middle-class American, I am among the wealthiest people in the world, and should be doing more to care for “the least of these”.
The fixed, dignified liturgy leaves me freer to really think about what it is I need to do. Nothing like hitting that “and what I have left undone” phrase in the confessional prayer to jog my memory! We don’t ask forgiveness only for sinful acts, but for intentionally forgone opportunities for doing good.
And not enough is said of the potential usefulness of a set schedule of Bible readings for pulling a preacher off a hobbyhorse…
If the current evangelical worship styles help you feel closer to God and make it easier for you to do justice and love mercy, then that’s where you should be. If not, go looking. Cultural elements become traditions for a reason.
I’m with you Amanda. Every time I pray the general confession, I find things jumping to mind that I need to consider and specifically confess to the Lord and deal with. And the “things we have left undone” thing really gets me. It reminds me that the Christian life does not just involve avoiding obvious sins…the “don’t” of the Bible. There are tons of things we’re called to be doing that I fall far short of.
When I left evangelicalism, I ran straight into the arms of the Religious Society of Friends. My meeting is under the Ohio Yearly Meeting, which is the most conservative yearly meeting in the U.S. and is very specifically Christian. That was very important to me – I would never go to one of the more liberal meetings where people might actually gasp if you stood up and said the name of Jesus, and where they just talk generically about “The Divine.”
But, here’s what I love: There’s only six of us. When one of our members broke her ankle and couldn’t drive to meeting, we went to her. Because meeting doesn’t have to be in the meeting house. It can be wherever there are two or more of us. Currently, someone is going through something and hasn’t been coming. So, we’re going after that one. There’s just too few of us not to try and work this out. We will not let that one go without a fight (so to speak). Each one of the other five people in my meeting is precious to me and I to them.
As Friends, we don’t observe sarcraments. But, every month we have a meal together, and I feel like that meal is much closer to what communion was meant to be than anything I ever experienced in a traditional church. The coming together to prepare the food, eating together, and then cleaning up together helps to bind us together and make us a family.
Carolyn, what if there is no *right way* to worship. I find it incredibly unlikely that God created us all individuals just so we could lock step together in uniform church services. To me, the meeting has been a balm to a badly wounded soul. You might find waiting in The Silence to be nothing short of maddening.
Chaplain Mike hit the nail on the head:
“Let’s be careful that we are not creating our kind of “consumerism†here. As if finding a more liturgical or traditional or mainline church will satisfy our “needs†better than a contemporary evangelical church.†I also think we need to be careful not to generalize with such terms as “shallowâ€, “grown-up youth group†and “worshiptainment†without any analysis of why those terms apply to most evangelical churches. There seems to be an unconscious bias that what is old and traditional is somehow deeper or more profound than what is newer and more spontaneous.
For example, the newer modern music is often criticized as shallow or trite (with the implication that the songs in the hymnal or more spiritual and doctrinal). When someone actually attempts to prove this point, they usually end up comparing the best songs of the past with the most vacuous songs of the present (and yes, “Our Love is Loud†does not compare well with, “A Mighty Fortressâ€). This should be seen as the fallacy it is. A song like, “How Great is Our God†has just as much biblical truth as almost any song in the hymnal, and “In Christ Alone†(Getty and Townend) makes many of the old hymns look almost infantile. If you doubt that last statement, then examine the words to “In Christ Alone†closely compared with such classics as, “O that will be Glory for meâ€, “I’d Rather have Jesusâ€, “Beneath the Cross of Jesus†or any of the songs by Fanny Crosby (she has 16 contributions in my hymnal).
Obviously to compare things fully would take much work (easier to dismiss things with an insult).
Perhaps a better question to ask than which format is “deeper†is to examine what God thinks of each style or worship. After all, it is His church, not ours. The difficulty here, or course, is that of discerning His thoughts on this. Since most of these issues are not directly addressed in the Scriptures, it will take serious reflection on those things that God has revealed about Himself.
In my own life, this has boiled down to the following principles regarding church and worship:
• Worship is, first and foremost, something that should please God
• God is pleased when worship is the true response of a person’s heart when seeing or understanding God’s glory and goodness
• God is pleased when the form of worship models His own attributes of truth and beauty
• God is pleased when worship exalts His attributes and nature, the work of Jesus, and the presence and power of the Spirit
• God is pleased when worship displays and celebrates both His transcendence and His immanence
• God is pleased when worship leads the worshippers to greater Christ-likeness
I certainly see areas where my own evangelical church does not measure up in several of these areas as much as it should (and I’m the one who gets to plan the services!), especially in the third, fifth and last items mentioned. I don’t have enough experience in mainline churches to comment very well on how they measure up here, and I don’t want to be guilty of hasty generalizations. I suspect, though, that just as I must be purposeful and intentional to help people to see the transcendence of God (that is, His absolute separation from and superiority to ourselves and our world), that many traditional churches might struggle to display His immanence (that is, His intimate presence and involvement in our lives). And while I cannot say I am satisfied with either my own or my church’s Christ-likeness, I will be frank enough to say that in my limited experience most evangelicals I know take this issue more seriously than those I have known from mainline churches (again, a generalization). Finally, I have lingering questions about how clearly many of the mainline churches proclaim the very heart of the gospel: Christ’s substitution for our sin on the cross.
This explains why I will not be heading down Main Street anytime soon (well, plus the fact that many mainline churches seem to place themselves above Scripture instead of below it). However, to modify a famous quote, “it takes the whole people of God to display the whole glory of Godâ€, and so I am glad that liturgical churches exist, and I pray that those which preach the gospel will thrive.
Dainel:
Do you think consumerism has any effect at all on worship in the contemporary church? Where do all those contemporary songs come from?
Do you believe tradition has any value? Why was it wise to throw away the lectionary? Weekly communion? Confesssions? Creeds? Why were they disposalable and replaceable with more talking from the people on stage?
Does it concern you that the new worship style creates so many “divas of worship?” Of both genders?
And finally, does scripture proscribe any elements of worship? When we see responsive reading in the Psalms or liturgy in Revelation or a command for public scripture reading in I Tim, what do we do with that?
peace
ms