If I become Lutheran, Anglican or Catholic, it will be because I watched this too many times.
August 25, 2009 by iMonk
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i haven’t seen anyone put this in context. This is the worship leader for the Todd Bentley “revival” in Lakeland, Florida. As a Baptist, I am relieved that this did not take place at a Baptist church, though I’m sure our denomination has produced some pretty low moments in worship.
It looked like a couple of those guys were spinning their boxers around. Also what the heck was that drummer wearing on his head? He looked like a Monty Python character.
That was disgusting. I really wanted to throw up.
Wow.
i didn’t think it was possible to make that song worse than it naturally is.
that was embarrassing–and I only watched about 2 minutes.
Now where is that tornado when you need it????
Now this is a good comment. I need a new monitor now.
This popped up as a “related video”. More fodder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9-PebV634
Personally, I prefer this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbtkhB3cFGs
Just make sure to read the “about” section on the right.
[Mod edit. Post is too long]
The above article was written by John Piper
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByTopic/60/1497_Thoughts_on_Worship_and_Culture/
And my personal opinion–For this kind of genre I ask myself, is this the kind of music that angels dance to when one sinner repents? Are the lyrics something I can imagine us all singing and dancing in heaven one day? To answer the former question, this music does not remind me of the majesty of Christ, the sovereignty of God, the joy I have in a risen Saviour…it reminds me of anything but Jesus…that my friends is another definition of idolatry. To answer the latter question, I do commend all who take what culture gives and turn it around for Jesus. Some old classic hymns were born from bars way back when. However, the lyrics aren’t changed enough to make this a worthwhile worship song about Jesus. If an unbeliever comes into that scene and listens to the words, will he/she hear the gospel? Will he/she see their need to repent? or see their need for Jesus? I think not.
I don’t think the two-part division of culture presented here is accurate. A better analysis would be to divide culture into three parts: high culture, folk (traditional) culture, and pop (mass) culture.
Using this division we put Bach, Shakespeare, and a five-star restaurant into the high culture category; non-commercial bluegrass music, most 19th century hymns, bed-time stories, and mom’s potato salad into traditional culture; and pop/rock/hip hop/ commercial country, CCM, Wal-Mart pulp fiction, and McDonald’s into pop (mass) culture.
Using this three-part analysis yields different results from those posted above, especially as we find much common ground between Christianity and both high and folk culture, and little common ground between Christianity and pop culture. By not distinguishing between folk (traditional) culture and (pop) mass culture, Piper fails to distinguish how folk culture helps preserve a legacy while mass culture smashes everything not produced within the last month or so.
Good point. I think we both agree this style of worship was horrible.
However, I’d be curious which of the 3 categories you would classify this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwbb9IVT7s
The song you linked is a hybrid. The musical style is solidly situated in the pop culture slot, while the lyrics floating along on top are a traditional (folk) culture effort at preservation of a legacy. I saw no high culture here at all.
I agree. Although I think Mozart would have a hard time rapping as fast and syncopated as Flame did.
I looked you up Bill, I was wrong when I alluded to some hymns originating from bars.
You one smart guy. May the LORD use you richly for His glory and for your joy, and that your voice may be heard.
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-big-worship-goof/comment-page-4#comment-483209
“Some old classic hymns were born from bars way back when. ”
Please, please, please, can we stop perpetuating this Christian urban legend. It just ain’t so!
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=2639&loc_id=17,627,628
http://home.comcast.net/~pjones25/articles/Luther.htm
http://ruberad.wordpress.com/2006/03/10/why-cant-ccm-have-any-good-tunes/
(I did my master’s thesis on a hymn-related topic, so I just have to say something when this urban legend rears its head.)
Well, in situations like this, I suggest a healthy dollop of incense, to be used at the time when the socks are being taken off to be flung around.
Incense could be the only way to redeem the moment … or at least the smell.
Hee. Right, because otherwise, they’re bringing in da noise and da funk in a just too literal sense.
omg people having fun in jesus’ name! it must be the devil at work. what a bunch of blasphemers.
I would be with you if the song wasn’t prefaced by a solemn talk about giving honor to God by taking off your shoes, and then he pulls this nonsense. I spent my time in my teens singing fun & humorous Christian songs in camp & youth group settings, but then after we kids had a time for fun, the leader would then direct us more towards seriousness & we’d enter into real worship. He or she wouldn’t get all solemn with us & then pull out the cutesy stuff.
I just found myself a little more sympathetic to the “ad orientem” position – couldn’t they just turn away?
But seriously folks – if you think “worship” means “praise music” then you’ve already lost the plot even if it’s J. S. Bach. Singing is a sort of corporate act of devotion that is a sort of add-on to Christian worship, not the thing itself. It’s not the cake, it’s the icing (maybe).
Now, as for this – what is it, toe-cheese flavored icing?
Perhaps this video might be useful for the sake of contrast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WtsGS6kpDU&feature=channel
After my more jesting comment a few hours ago (middle of the night, actually, where I am), having thought about it a bit more and having shown it to my wife (who comes from a “closed” Plymouth Brethren background), here are a few more comments, first hers then mine.
1. (Geraldine’s comment) This is obviously not worship, nor does it really have anything to do with Jesus. That aside, it looks like good, clean, harmless fun, good aerobic exercise, and I would be happier if our son (just turned 16) spent his time doing that rather than going down to the pub for a few beers and a smoke. The music certainly sounds very much like what he plays most of the time anyway.
2. (my comments) I am afraid, Michael, that if things like this ever DO prompt you to become Lutheran, Anglican, or Catholic, sooner or later you would be disappointed, too. ALL tradtitions, whether Evangelical, Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, or even Orthodox, have their aberrations. If you don’t believe it, just look at what happend in San Diego and Minneapolis in the last couple of months for problems with the Anglicans and Lutherans in the US, and remember the headlines concerning the Catholic Church in the US a few years back or in Ireland only a couple of months ago. Of course I could give you many more examples about Lutherans and Catholics here on the European continent, but just think of Sweden where the Lutheran Church sides with the state in prosecuting preachers who insist on teaching biblical views on sex.
Those are not the Anglicans or Lutherans you are talking about? You’re thinking of the AMiA type Anglicans, for example? Fine, but then please don’t judge Evangelicals and Evangelicalism by the worst manifestations thereof either. You aren’t really trying to tell us that this kind of performance by a clown like Rick Pino would be welcome in most evangelical churches in the US, are you? It certainly would not be welcome in most evangelical churches in Europe. If this guy really is, as someone said in a comment, the “worship leader” for the Todd Bentley Show in Lakeland FL, then it is well to keep in mind that most Evangelicals consider that whole thing to be very much on the fringes of their movement, if it could even legitimately be considered part of it. No way does this define Evangelicalism, any more than Mrs Katherine “Squid” Jefferts-Schori defines Anglicanism.
Awww, Wolf Paul…I don’t think there’s any judgement going on here, just laughing at the laughable.
Your caution is well taken, though.
AMiA/ACNA. Not TEC.
I have to disagree, friend. Everyone who has heard me preach for 18 years where I serve would trade every sermon I ever delivered for that kind of “worship.”
I’m not disputing that, I’d take any of your sermons over that, as well — or I wouldn’t be reading your blog. Not sure what exactly you are disagreeng with me on.
My point was that overall this video and this clown are no more typical of the majority of Evangelicals than Schori & Co are of Anglicans, etc, even though they get more attention and press than the ordinary, faithful variety.
“Squid”? San Diego???
I think the point of all of these posts is to question and challenge the prevailing Evangelical conception of worship–which is often equated to some type of singing (oddly, sans any written music). Certainly not every evangelical church is this bad–but I’d be willing to bet money that the majority of evangelical churches employ various manifestations of the praise band genre and all that it entails.
Why don’t you guys actually step away from your computer and get up and DO something for God rather than sit here and judge everything that looks different than what you do. Your haughty stance is sickening to me.
The worst part of this bit of nonsense is that most of the audience is probably just young enough not to have heard the original songs this ‘performer’ blatantly cribbed for his Hodgepodge of Worship cover medly. Some might actually be lead to believe this was somehow clever, original music.
On that thought do you thing he got permission from the copyright holders to chage the lyrics and preform their songs? I mean are churches exempt from copyright infringement?
I’m pretty sure you don’t have to have permission to perform someone’s song live. Broadcast rights and lyric projection are different.
Can you imagine the smell in that place?!
My brain hurts now, thanks
Why is it that I’m reminded of a scene from “You Don’t Mess With The Zohan” when watching this?
“DISCO! DISCO! GOOD GOOD!
DISCO! DISCO! GOOD GOOD!”
This was gold.
I’ll take Disco over this any day. Meco’s “Star Wars” remix, “A Fifth of Beethoven”, or the classic “Do the Hustle!”
Wow… just… wow.
Spinning socks? Seriously? I couldn’t even get past the first couple minutes. As soon as the dude broke into “You Spin Me Round” I tapped out.
I lasted about a minute longer. Just long enough for the first verse of “You Spin Me Round, Except CHRISTIAN (TM)!” I can hear better filks in the filk room of any SF con.
General warning: If what you are doing can be described as “Just like Fill-in-the-Blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”, kill it before it dies with maximum cruelty. You’ll be doing Christ a favor; I don’t think He likes being made to look stupid.
Hilarious–and sickening. It’s difficult to believe this “worship leader” thinks “You Spin Me Right Round” is the highest cultural expression that Western Civ. has to offer.
Reminded me of the South Park episode where Cartman becomes a CCM star by 1) Taking the lyrics of a pop song 2) Crossing out “baby” and 3) inserting “Jesus.” Very simple!
Or the opposite tack, I found on YouTube yesterday evening the “It’s All About Me” collection (parody). Popular praise and worship songs with “me” in place of “Jesus”. Very humorous!
That’s my favorite South Park episode EVER!!! Mostly ‘cuz I I grew up on Christian Metal & rock but eventually figured out how crappy most of it was (though, as far as thrash metal goes, no band was better than the Christian band Tournaquet… deep lyrics and amazing metal. Metallica, Slayer, Megadeath, and Anthrax weren’t even close).
This video made me guffaw when he went to “You Spin Me Round.” I’m just glad I was the only one in the office… it might have been embarrassing.
Hahahahaha!
Now excuse me while I go bleach out my eyes and ears. And nostrils.
It isn’t so much that this is blasphemous (I don’t think so), or irreverent (not to the people participating). It’s just absurd to the point of parody.
The leader’s prayer of “mess us up” has clearly already been answered. To cap it off, he had to add his little “we love the Lordy” at the end. Yikes.
Worship leaders need to be taught properly, but most worship leaders aren’t actually taught anything at all, its just mimicry and aping. So its not really their fault that they end up going in weird tangents. They are just products of their churches. Leading worship is tough because you have to handle all the musical aspects, and at the same time channel the holy spirit and lift everyone out of the depths. its too much to expect of any one. I think such high expectation contributes to the weirdness.
Where is the Biblical position of “worship leader” found? The contemporary worship leader is not just the product of the churches, but of the culture itself. I can’t recall too many band leaders in the NT. IMHO, the pastor should lead worship, with assistance from congregation members. It is part of the pastor’s leadership responsibility that many have abandoned.
1) No, IMonk, if I become MUSLIM, it will be because I warched this too many times. Now I know why Mohammed forbade any music (except for vocals such as reciting the Koran) in mosques.
2) That’s a really awful filk of a pop song. Straight out of South Park (“Just take some twenty-year-old pop song and substitute ‘Jesus’ for ‘OOOOOO BABY!’” — Cartman)
3) Why am I not surprised this guy was connected to Tatted Todd of Lakeland? Maybe Todd should have kneed HIM one in the nuts — “SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!!!!”
4) I think I’ll stick with Mass at St Boniface. I’ll even settle for that one Furry Fandom garage-band CD sampler I’ve got, the one where the garage band drops in “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent” in the middle of an otherwise-pop sampler and sings it completely solemn & straight. Yes, a Furvert realized the sanctity of such music, and this “Praise-and-Worship Band” didn’t…
I need to hug the porcelan bowl
Take a number and stand in line after the rest of us Apostates and Heathen and Pharisees…
sorry H.U.G…..I…just ….cant’… WAIT………(hurls loudly)
send me the bill for your shirt, etc.
Greg R
“Mess us up” and “spin me like a record”. Reminds me of my youth (30 odd years ago) when it was not uncommon to hear something like “Jesus gives me a high like drugs never did!”
The idea behind that could be noble, i.e. “I used to take drugs to make me feel better emotionally, but my emotions have improved significantly since living as a Christian, and here is why I think that is …”
But it could also have given people an expectation of emotional bliss upon becoming born again that is not realistic. Which could raise a lot of questions for them later when it does not occur (which is not necessarily bad if the questions are then answered adequately.)
It does make me wonder what people in the Lakeland movement have in mind when asking God to “mess us up?” Maybe give me a strong experience in a meeting? Maybe inspire me to make a drastic or severe change in my life? I don’t really know because I’m not involved in that movement.
God doesn’t need to “mess up” the Lakelanders. They’re plenty messed up as it is.
I feel like I’ve been Rickrolled, christian style. Big laugh when the song came on, but then I had to turn it off. Yikes.
And this isn’t even a funny RickRoll, like that Looking for Group strip.
And now for something serious: There is a fine line between expressing preferences and expressing judgments, but a universe of difference. I can say for sure this isn’t my cup of tea; but is it wrong (i.e., ‘not good’ in some objective spiritual sense)? If faith can and must be expressed through the culture of the day, which in our historical time includes cheesy pop music, then why not this? Where do we draw the line? Who draws it, and by what criterion? Anyhow, don’t envy those Catholics too much. I once heard that back in the 70s there were priests singing Cumbaya on acoustic guitar.
I have no problem saying it is “wrong,” not in absolute moral terms, but as a false representation of what genuinely Biblical worship is.
It’s hard to see how a ‘false representation’ of genuine Biblical worship could not be wrong in moral terms (wrong itself is a moral term, and ‘falsity’ carries moral implications).
I won’t split hairs with you over definitions. If this was designed as a worship experience, it’s wrong.
I have to agree with you here. I’m all for enjoying worship and I sincerly believe you can have a good time and still be in worship (priavetly or corporately). But this! What is biblical about this? As Wolf Paul said, every denomination has its silly or screw up moments, but this is just embarassing.
What I can’t get past is the verge (if not flat out) mockery of God here. They speak of the Holy Spirit and trying to honor the Lord… is taking off your socks and shoes really honoring? Is this a new ritual that will call the Holy Spirit down on you?
I feel like this ‘worship leader’ is dancing (no pun intended) on a thin line here. He not only lacks cleverness as an artist, he lacks genuinality! The true heart of worship!
Not to mention… why are his shoes still on??? Hmmm….
Your conditional “if” is so vital in the fourth line. All culture(s) are not equal; nor are all wholesome; nor do all reflect the influence of the Divine is equal measure. Some culture(s) cannot be used in the Christian walk. Even points of Hebrew (OT) culture which were, at the time, accepted by God, and even used to instruct us, have been deemed unacceptable; eg. lex talionis, “an eye for an eye.’
American (and all of Western) culture is entirely self centered, and is therefore low on the possibilities of being useful in the Christian Faith and Religion; music, art, attitudes, all included.
These are insightful thoughts. Thanks.
Absolutely pathetic. Only in the United States of America – no offence intended to my American friends.Glad this kind of blasphemous nonsense has very little chance of happening in Canada.
I think this is a tongue-in-cheek joke? If so, pretty funny.
From the Wikipedia entry on the Lakeland Revival and Todd Bentley
“During the revival, Bentley’s spokesperson said that Bentley continued “to draw his standard salary, set by his board, from his office in Canada.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakeland_Revival
To be fair to this man (apparently his name is Rick Pino), I found a couple more clips of him on YouTube that might help us form a more balanced perspective of him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-rchUuRM0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn_WBnQo3w8
That original clip of him may not have been his finest moment, but I’m willing to bet that he really loves the Lord and draws many people into authentic worship.
After watching, no change of opinion here. Frankly, from a liturgical Christian’s perspective, the comment, he “draws many people into authentic worship” is a giveaway, Bill. What does that mean? In the culture-bound, pietistic (in some cases superstitious or gnostic) practices of “worship leaders” it amounts to little more than manipulating people’s emotions through music and spectacle. The Reformers called this “enthusiasm,” and condemned it roundly.
Frankly, from another liturgical Christian’s perspective, I’m not sure what the giveaway is, Mike. Are you suggesting that my view is culture-bound, pietistic (in some cases superstitious or gnostic), and condones manipulating people’s emotions through music and spectacle?
Wasn’t necessarily reflecting on you, but the language you were using and the implication that what the video shows is people being “led into authentic worship” by a song leader. All I was saying is that in most instances when I hear people using language like that, they are betraying a pietistic perspective on worship, that it’s somehow not “authentic” unless I’m “caught up in it” in an emotional or even ecstatic way.
I don’t know you—what do you think? What does “leading people into authentic worship” mean?
Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re trying to say here, but i recall scripture to say ” ‘When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.’ Jesus said this to indicate how he was going to die.” John 12:32-33
I take that to mean, he alone “leads people into authentic worship”. Its not about what we can do to rally everyone up, its about what the Lord did and how we REALLY Honor him for his death and ressurection by our hearts, with our words, and our actions… not by taking off our socks and shoes to spin them around.
I agree, Mike, that language like that could very well be indicative of perspective on worship that is fairly shallow. It sounds like you’ve heard it used that way a lot. It’s not what I meant, but I certainly believe you when you say you’ve heard it used that way. Frankly, I’m not married to that phrase at all. My only hope is that people’s hearts are truly focused on worshiping God in community when they come together, and I believe that a lot of outward expression and emotion can be either a help or a hindrance to that. As I said earlier, I worship in a liturgical church, and as much as I wasn’t fan of some things I saw in that video, I would be quite cautious about assuming that our hearts are more focused on God or our worship more pleasing to him. Thanks for the interesting discussion, Mike, and God bless you, my friend.
Folks, It’s a new low….. there are no words to describe this. It’s not worship and quite honestly it’s enough to make me not ever want to attend church ever again! Thankfully, I have a church that my wife and I are attending right now that has good decent and wholesome worship – very thankful for the church even with a flaw or two.
Folks, this has to stop – we are literally witnessing the end and it’s upon us unless we put a stop to it once and for all. One has to laugh…. the only other option is to cry – indeed weep over such irreverance disrespect of God in worship (which it’s not).
Nothing further…….
As Hank Hill would say, “You’re not making Jesus better…you’re making Rock & Roll worse.”
This.
Yeah, this kind of thing would have kept me in fortune telling/spell work.
(iMonk, if you go Lutheran, lets talk. You need a heads up on the Mauve, and the coffee is pretty bad. Plus the Norwegians. I will talk you through it, no worries man…)
Love,
LuLu
Speaking for the Anglicans? Turn or burn, worship leader with bad haircut.
And we almost *never* say that.
:0)
I need to go make Latin incantations of impreccatory Psalms and burn incense for a couple of hours after that.
I find it interesting all the comments about not judging these people’s hearts. Of course we’re not judging their hearts! No one said these people don’t have good motives. It’s everything BEDSIDES the motivation that warrants condemnation.
Where do I mail my old evangelical membership card? And how do I join the Eastern Orthodox?
And tell me, IMonk, that it’s really not you at the keyboard with that baseball cap off…
It must’ve been all the spinning- I don’t feel well.
All this Spinning makes me puke!
Dead or Alive would be so proud
This is EXACTLY why I’m writing a book about restoring the humility and holiness of God back into the church! Worship plays a key role. And this clip? Well, it proves exactly why we miss the mark.
Not exactly surprised that the beginning and ending song is a rip off of a popular secular song about stripper pole dancing. Makes me CRINGE! Pretty “stinky” stuff!
I’m not crazy about the music. I’m not sure that matters as much as we all think it does. The psalmist did say to make joyful noise. One thing I do know is the Church in western culture seems to be reaching all of the same kinds of people with the same kinds of tastes in music. I’m probably a little more opened minded than some. I don’t think God makes cookie cutter people.
The thing that disturbs me more than the video is the way we are all judging this service. How many of us were there? What happened in the rest of the service? If this song helped these young people to be opened to a message about Jesus messing up their way of thinking and making a change, I say glory to God.
After all the disiples were not crazy about Jesus talking to the woman at the well.
I think it’s time for the Church to break the mold if there’s any hope for us really reaching all of the sub-culture’s in our society.
Anyone else find his reference to Moses being shoeless a little off the mark here? Moses removed his shoes because the Lord told him to, because he was standing on Holy Ground.
And I dont recall the Lord asking Moses to spin his shoes around and dance to some hit single in front of that burning bush either…
Wow.
Sorry, but I humbly disagree with all of you critics. The speaker begins by saying this is an act of honor. Yet all of the comments I read, dishonor him, those experiencing enthusiastic worship and God through your critical statements.
Sunday morning – no. Youth conference – yes. Outreach to club culture – absolutely.
Moses took off his sandals just as these kids got barefoot.
Jesus whirled in worship – spun like a record.
David said he would be more undignified in worship. Remember what happened to the one who was his critic.
What is worse? What happens in most churches in America, bored people singing songs they don’t understand. Unwilling and unable to bend down to reach their shoes, let alone remove them in the presence of worship.
I may not personally like what I see (which FYI I personally would not enjoy that worship time) but God forbid I would be a critic of someone getting people to dance wildly for Jesus.
“Jesus whirled in worship – spun like a record.”
Say what?
There’s a world of difference between “reaching out to culture” and offering some sort of watered down, shallow worship “experience” that lacks any sort of substance or spiritual challenge. And the “culture” can tell the difference between the two.
This discussion has been picked up elsewhere for their layer of commentary. See the following link:
http://remonstrans.net/index.php/2009/08/28/deep_in_the_woods
>…Jesus whirled in worship – spun like a record.
OK. Where and when?
It’s not the ‘worst’ worship as it doesn’t register to me as worship at all. It’s blasphemy.
Dave Miller:
This guy in the video (Rick Pino) is not the worship leader at Lakeland even though Pino did appear at Lakeland for a couple of nights to give the Lakeland Revival worship team a break. The main worship leader at Lakeland was Roy Fields and he appears to be trying to “re-create the magic” once again with a “worship Camp” in late September in all places, Lakeland, Fl
–
another crazy and bizarre Rick Pino video similar to the one IM posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ape-7zbsx4A
it seems like this is a ‘routine’ that is used anytime a ‘dead crowd’ needs to be ‘awaken’ to feel like ‘God moved”.
–
I can easily see why someone would want to become Lutheran, Anglican or Catholic over this. I can easily see why some would want to leave Christianity altogether after watching this video. Just think that they really believe that they are part of the “Joshua Generation” nonsense and that this is part of that lifestyle.
I agree with the Guy from Knoxville that this indicates the end is upon us. The problem with the church in America isn’t liberals. If the “conservatives” were actually full of light, light would be shining in and conquering the darkness. But alas, this country is full of churches that look like this and are welcoming the darkness of flesh-centered entertainment to the point of gross irreverence into “worship”. How can the church be a light that transforms and lifts up the world around it when videos like this show a church that wants to be like the world and can’t get enough of it? Persecution of the church is coming but not, as folks in this video would surely claim, because the world is getting more evil as a prelude to the rapture which will carry off these narcissistic “worshippers” into an eternal rock concert, but rather because the church itself has lost its salt and is good for nothing but throwing out.
Notice how he keeps trying to get everybody to join in the antics. If he sees someone not participating, he just shouts louder, “Everybody!” It’s as if the fact that someone isn’t joining in in the pep rally or following his every instruction, it must mean that they’re sitting in judgement on what happens and he has to stifle that immediately. Is that an overreaction on my part? As a teenager, a Christian rock band visited my church youth group and put on a concert. I didn’t much care for it, but I was there and when the band leader started shouting instructions sort of like this guy in the video to do various motions with the music, I chose not to participate. I wasn’t standing with my arms crossed with a smug or defiant look—I was just standing there observing and listening. The band leader actually came down off stage to the row I was in and indicated that he was going to make a scene with me if I didn’t start doing the motions. These “praise” leaders are nothing more than vain power seekers, thriving on the ability to manipulate people and hating anyone who has the audacity not to follow their lead or who oppose them in any way.