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	<title>Comments on: Iain Murray: Facing the Main Problem in Evangelism Today</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-503547</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-503547</guid>
		<description>The fact is the world &lt;i&gt;doesn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; see the need for salvation in the sense that the evangelical church offers it (a better hereafter) but the world is very concerned with the Problem of Evil here, now and hereafter.

Thus I think we need to get back to Paul&#039;s bigger perspective and God&#039;s bigger plan which includes everybody and everything. Yes, our personal sins are a problem but &lt;a href=&quot;http://cawoodm.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/is-christianity-about-morality/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;God&#039;s redemptive plan is bigger&lt;/a&gt;.

Perhaps if we understood properly what Jesus came to inaugurate we would find far more non-Christians eager and willing to get onboard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact is the world <i>doesn&#8217;t</i> see the need for salvation in the sense that the evangelical church offers it (a better hereafter) but the world is very concerned with the Problem of Evil here, now and hereafter.</p>
<p>Thus I think we need to get back to Paul&#8217;s bigger perspective and God&#8217;s bigger plan which includes everybody and everything. Yes, our personal sins are a problem but <a href="http://cawoodm.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/is-christianity-about-morality/" rel="nofollow">God&#8217;s redemptive plan is bigger</a>.</p>
<p>Perhaps if we understood properly what Jesus came to inaugurate we would find far more non-Christians eager and willing to get onboard.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Lake</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-323074</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Lake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-323074</guid>
		<description>Michael,

Thanks for featuring Iain Murray on your site!  I was pleasantly surprised when I saw this post, as I know that you have intentionally not identified as &quot;Reformed&quot; for quite a while.  

The Banner of Truth Trust has published so much material over the years that could help to positively reshape evangelicalism-- if evangelicals only knew about it and/or would simply give it the time of day!  The &quot;Puritan Paperbacks&quot; series contains some real treasures.  The Puritans certainly had many problems (the American ones especially; I like that the Banner of Truth focuses more on the English ones), but they had a high view of God and a serious view of sin that evangelicals today desperately need!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>Thanks for featuring Iain Murray on your site!  I was pleasantly surprised when I saw this post, as I know that you have intentionally not identified as &#8220;Reformed&#8221; for quite a while.  </p>
<p>The Banner of Truth Trust has published so much material over the years that could help to positively reshape evangelicalism&#8211; if evangelicals only knew about it and/or would simply give it the time of day!  The &#8220;Puritan Paperbacks&#8221; series contains some real treasures.  The Puritans certainly had many problems (the American ones especially; I like that the Banner of Truth focuses more on the English ones), but they had a high view of God and a serious view of sin that evangelicals today desperately need!</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Lake</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-323072</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Lake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-323072</guid>
		<description>Dana,

What if we *won&#039;t* love God unless He changes our hearts?  This seems to be the Bible&#039;s testimony about us-- at least until God intervenes in our lives, personally, individually.  Paul says that no one seeks God, which means that He is the one doing the seeking.  

Also, do hearts of stone love God, until they are changed to hearts of flesh-- or perhaps a better question is, *can* they love God?  What you describe as coercion may be like a blind man being given sight, after which he &quot;sees&quot; a Sight so beautiful that he cannot refuse, or wouldn&#039;t *want* to refuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dana,</p>
<p>What if we *won&#8217;t* love God unless He changes our hearts?  This seems to be the Bible&#8217;s testimony about us&#8211; at least until God intervenes in our lives, personally, individually.  Paul says that no one seeks God, which means that He is the one doing the seeking.  </p>
<p>Also, do hearts of stone love God, until they are changed to hearts of flesh&#8211; or perhaps a better question is, *can* they love God?  What you describe as coercion may be like a blind man being given sight, after which he &#8220;sees&#8221; a Sight so beautiful that he cannot refuse, or wouldn&#8217;t *want* to refuse.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana Ames</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-322707</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana Ames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-322707</guid>
		<description>I can certainly go with transformation.  All I&#039;m saying is that humans have a part in sanctification and that we choose.  We are made in the image of God, who is Love, and if we can&#039;t choose without coercion, then we can&#039;t love.  Love is what changes stones into flesh.

Dana</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can certainly go with transformation.  All I&#8217;m saying is that humans have a part in sanctification and that we choose.  We are made in the image of God, who is Love, and if we can&#8217;t choose without coercion, then we can&#8217;t love.  Love is what changes stones into flesh.</p>
<p>Dana</p>
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		<title>By: J.P.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-322610</link>
		<dc:creator>J.P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-322610</guid>
		<description>it&#039;s been a problem for a while now, but it&#039;s definately getting worse -

“Certain new theologians dispute original sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved … They deny human sin, which they can see in the street.  The strongest saints and the strongest sceptics alike took positive evil as the starting-point of their argument.  If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philosopher can only draw one of two deductions.  He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or he must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do.  The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat.”
- G.K. Chesterton</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it&#8217;s been a problem for a while now, but it&#8217;s definately getting worse -</p>
<p>“Certain new theologians dispute original sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved … They deny human sin, which they can see in the street.  The strongest saints and the strongest sceptics alike took positive evil as the starting-point of their argument.  If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philosopher can only draw one of two deductions.  He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or he must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do.  The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat.”<br />
- G.K. Chesterton</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Lake</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-321945</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Lake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-321945</guid>
		<description>Dana,

God may not &quot;override&quot; our wills and choices (I&#039;m not sure how you mean that though), but He does say that He will take hearts of stone and make them hearts of flesh.  If this is not overriding our wills, it is most certainly *transforming* them-- which *results* in our cooperation with God for our *sanctification.*  Calling and justification, on the other hand, are purely His work.  Romans 8:30.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dana,</p>
<p>God may not &#8220;override&#8221; our wills and choices (I&#8217;m not sure how you mean that though), but He does say that He will take hearts of stone and make them hearts of flesh.  If this is not overriding our wills, it is most certainly *transforming* them&#8211; which *results* in our cooperation with God for our *sanctification.*  Calling and justification, on the other hand, are purely His work.  <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Romans+8%3A30" class="bibleref" title="ESV Romans 8:30">Romans 8:30</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana Ames</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-321096</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana Ames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-321096</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t know what was going on inside Paul up until that point, and Paul didn&#039;t really psychoanalyze himself in his writings, but I think he must have been chewing on what Christians had been proclaiming (and dying for, as Paul saw Stephen do), and when Jesus knocked him off the horse it all came clear.  Conversion is a process; it may be quicker for some than others, but that&#039;s how it works.  I don&#039;t believe that God overrides the will and choices of normally functioning human beings.  We&#039;re created in God&#039;s image, and that&#039;s not how the Trinity does things.

Dana</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t know what was going on inside Paul up until that point, and Paul didn&#8217;t really psychoanalyze himself in his writings, but I think he must have been chewing on what Christians had been proclaiming (and dying for, as Paul saw Stephen do), and when Jesus knocked him off the horse it all came clear.  Conversion is a process; it may be quicker for some than others, but that&#8217;s how it works.  I don&#8217;t believe that God overrides the will and choices of normally functioning human beings.  We&#8217;re created in God&#8217;s image, and that&#8217;s not how the Trinity does things.</p>
<p>Dana</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-321046</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-321046</guid>
		<description>Well, the Damascus Road experience stands in the face of all that we call evangelicalism. It is also the main evidence of monergism in the NT.
Paul wasn&#039;t convicted of sin, and he didn&#039;t get drawn to Jesus. He was on task and Jesus knocked him to the ground. He wasn&#039;t even directly witnessed to until after he was struck blind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the Damascus Road experience stands in the face of all that we call evangelicalism. It is also the main evidence of monergism in the NT.<br />
Paul wasn&#8217;t convicted of sin, and he didn&#8217;t get drawn to Jesus. He was on task and Jesus knocked him to the ground. He wasn&#8217;t even directly witnessed to until after he was struck blind.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-321040</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-321040</guid>
		<description>Conviction of sin...iMonk you consistently hit the nail on the head.
I thought about this all afternoon and you are right. We have allowed free, easy grace to the point that the sinner comtinues to walk exclusively in sin and he is just &quot;experiencing grace a little more than the rest of us&quot;. 
I was introduced to the Reformed theology just in the last year through White Horse Inn and this site. I now go to a church that is most close to Reformed Baptist. The pastor is from the Master&#039;s Seminary in California. They don&#039;t encourage altar calls because they think people look to that moment instead of to God. Very Spurgeon. And they preach the abhorrance of your own sin as the evidence of a changed life.
But I really don&#039;t hate my sin. I pretend to lament and then spout something about how &quot;its not works&quot;.
I thought about this all afternoon and I realized that I don&#039;t fear God. And suddenly I became terribly afraid and in awe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conviction of sin&#8230;iMonk you consistently hit the nail on the head.<br />
I thought about this all afternoon and you are right. We have allowed free, easy grace to the point that the sinner comtinues to walk exclusively in sin and he is just &#8220;experiencing grace a little more than the rest of us&#8221;.<br />
I was introduced to the Reformed theology just in the last year through White Horse Inn and this site. I now go to a church that is most close to Reformed Baptist. The pastor is from the Master&#8217;s Seminary in California. They don&#8217;t encourage altar calls because they think people look to that moment instead of to God. Very Spurgeon. And they preach the abhorrance of your own sin as the evidence of a changed life.<br />
But I really don&#8217;t hate my sin. I pretend to lament and then spout something about how &#8220;its not works&#8221;.<br />
I thought about this all afternoon and I realized that I don&#8217;t fear God. And suddenly I became terribly afraid and in awe.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott M</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/iain-murray-facing-the-main-problem-in-evangelism-today/comment-page-1#comment-321012</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2541#comment-321012</guid>
		<description>I won&#039;t have the opportunity to ask Bishop Tom, but I have a sense he would feel the same discomfort I do over labeling any one of these the &#039;greatest&#039; act. The supreme truth about God may have been revealed on the Cross. (And that supreme truth, as John tells us, is a true revelation of love.) But the cosmos changed when Jesus came out of the tomb. I&#039;ve also read the Resurrection of the Son of God.

I&#039;m probably more in line with the Christus Victor descriptions of the Cross. I grok recapitulation and ransom both better than the perspective of this post.

And I&#039;ve just mentally run the Damascus Road scene through my mind. I&#039;m not sure where I see &#039;conviction of sin&#039; as a significant facet of it at all. Paul was abruptly and dramatically told that he was following the wrong path and need to drop everything in his way of doing life and perceiving reality and start following Jesus. In other words -- repent and believe in Jesus. And he did so. I&#039;m not sure many of us get something as dramatic as Paul did. But again, I don&#039;t see a straight line connection to your conclusion. I can sorta see how, if I squint and look sideways and make several assumptions and logical leaps, I might get there. But it&#039;s not how the story naturally reads to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I won&#8217;t have the opportunity to ask Bishop Tom, but I have a sense he would feel the same discomfort I do over labeling any one of these the &#8216;greatest&#8217; act. The supreme truth about God may have been revealed on the Cross. (And that supreme truth, as John tells us, is a true revelation of love.) But the cosmos changed when Jesus came out of the tomb. I&#8217;ve also read the Resurrection of the Son of God.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m probably more in line with the Christus Victor descriptions of the Cross. I grok recapitulation and ransom both better than the perspective of this post.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;ve just mentally run the Damascus Road scene through my mind. I&#8217;m not sure where I see &#8216;conviction of sin&#8217; as a significant facet of it at all. Paul was abruptly and dramatically told that he was following the wrong path and need to drop everything in his way of doing life and perceiving reality and start following Jesus. In other words &#8212; repent and believe in Jesus. And he did so. I&#8217;m not sure many of us get something as dramatic as Paul did. But again, I don&#8217;t see a straight line connection to your conclusion. I can sorta see how, if I squint and look sideways and make several assumptions and logical leaps, I might get there. But it&#8217;s not how the story naturally reads to me.</p>
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