Comments on: How Do I Love The Church? (Or Why Jesus Isn’t An Enabler) http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 21 Mar 2010 07:34:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Danni Moss http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-287803 Danni Moss Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:44:40 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-287803 Scarlet D -- allusion to a Scarlet A for adultery, only the Scarlet D is for divorce. The divorce is the one I ultimately obtained after nearly dying of cancer after 20 years in an abusive Christian marriage and many years of trying to get help from my pastors (2 different churches) and multiple Christian counselors who kept sending me back into it to pray and submit and have more faith. By getting a divorce I also stayed alive to raise my then-infant daughter so she wouldn't be raised by her abusive father alone. I am determined that she will not grow up in the same household her older brothers did. -- Danni Scarlet D — allusion to a Scarlet A for adultery, only the Scarlet D is for divorce. The divorce is the one I ultimately obtained after nearly dying of cancer after 20 years in an abusive Christian marriage and many years of trying to get help from my pastors (2 different churches) and multiple Christian counselors who kept sending me back into it to pray and submit and have more faith.

By getting a divorce I also stayed alive to raise my then-infant daughter so she wouldn’t be raised by her abusive father alone. I am determined that she will not grow up in the same household her older brothers did.

– Danni

]]> By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-287631 Headless Unicorn Guy Mon, 15 Sep 2008 04:49:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-287631 <i>ometimes I imagine that God must have shuddered a bit when He decided to inclue free will in the attributes He gave to humans, knowing the crazy, horrible things we would do with it.</i> -- Mary Chapter preface from a science-fiction novella in progress: "The Church's First Contact contingency plans gave much thought to the possibility and danger of encountering an unfallen race. So far, we have not contacted any... All the (alien) species...are as fallen and tainted with sin as humanity, just in different ways. Apparently true sentience carries with it the potential for sin; the <i>Imago Dei</i>, expressed in whatever form, is always vulnerable." <i>I’ve reached the place of having to “de-church” at least for awhile because there is no place left for me with this “scarlet D” tatooed on my forehead.</i> -- Danni Scarlet D? ometimes I imagine that God must have shuddered a bit when He decided to inclue free will in the attributes He gave to humans, knowing the crazy, horrible things we would do with it. — Mary

Chapter preface from a science-fiction novella in progress:

“The Church’s First Contact contingency plans gave much thought to the possibility and danger of encountering an unfallen race. So far, we have not contacted any… All the (alien) species…are as fallen and tainted with sin as humanity, just in different ways. Apparently true sentience carries with it the potential for sin; the Imago Dei, expressed in whatever form, is always vulnerable.”

I’ve reached the place of having to “de-church” at least for awhile because there is no place left for me with this “scarlet D” tatooed on my forehead. — Danni

Scarlet D?

]]> By: edgeofraisin http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-287388 edgeofraisin Sun, 14 Sep 2008 12:10:38 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-287388 Hearing a man speak like this is very heartening and encouraging, indeed. Thank you very much for your understanding, your integrity, and your voice. May it be heard and heeded. Let's try to remember that the church, as a people, is the eyes, ears, hands, feet, and mouth of Jesus Christ. He never turned away from suffering and injustice. He confronted it not counting the cost to himself. Hearing a man speak like this is very heartening and encouraging, indeed. Thank you very much for your understanding, your integrity, and your voice. May it be heard and heeded. Let’s try to remember that the church, as a people, is the eyes, ears, hands, feet, and mouth of Jesus Christ. He never turned away from suffering and injustice. He confronted it not counting the cost to himself.

]]> By: Christopher Lake http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-287256 Christopher Lake Sun, 14 Sep 2008 03:24:30 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-287256 Edgeofraisin, Hannah, and Danni, My sisters in Christ, my heart aches for you and what you have been through, and I mean that sincerely, as a Christian man. At my previous church, the pastor did openly speak from the pulpit about the sin of men mistreating their wives-- and specifically men who *claim* to be Christians. I will not belong to a church which does not practice church discipline regarding this sin-- including public confrontation of abusive men, if necessary, and excommunication, if there is no repentance. May God's people faithfully, consistently bring to light, and deal with, this sin which hides in secrecy and hypocrisy! Edgeofraisin, Hannah, and Danni,

My sisters in Christ, my heart aches for you and what you have been through, and I mean that sincerely, as a Christian man. At my previous church, the pastor did openly speak from the pulpit about the sin of men mistreating their wives– and specifically men who *claim* to be Christians. I will not belong to a church which does not practice church discipline regarding this sin– including public confrontation of abusive men, if necessary, and excommunication, if there is no repentance. May God’s people faithfully, consistently bring to light, and deal with, this sin which hides in secrecy and hypocrisy!

]]> By: Danni Moss http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-287173 Danni Moss Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:29:09 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-287173 edgeofraisin, Hannah -- you gals know me, we're singing from the same hymnal, and trying to say the same thing out here in blogland because of similar experiences inside the church. I've reached the place of having to "de-church" at least for awhile because there is no place left for me with this "scarlet D" tatooed on my forehead. I am "less" and am only acceptable within that context - everything about me is colored through that lens. But I need to find out how to live in peace with the church, even if nothing ever changes. I cannot be bitter. I want to be a voice of change, and that can't happen if I am waylaid by my own hurt. This post was certainly insightful in that direction. -- Danni edgeofraisin, Hannah — you gals know me, we’re singing from the same hymnal, and trying to say the same thing out here in blogland because of similar experiences inside the church. I’ve reached the place of having to “de-church” at least for awhile because there is no place left for me with this “scarlet D” tatooed on my forehead. I am “less” and am only acceptable within that context – everything about me is colored through that lens.

But I need to find out how to live in peace with the church, even if nothing ever changes. I cannot be bitter. I want to be a voice of change, and that can’t happen if I am waylaid by my own hurt. This post was certainly insightful in that direction.

– Danni

]]> By: Mary http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-286987 Mary Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:13:02 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-286987 Sometimes I imagine that God must have shuddered a bit when He decided to inclue free will in the attributes He gave to humans, knowing the crazy, horrible things we would do with it. But I have to believe it is also part of the glory when we follow Christ fully in the hope He suffered so much to give us. Because the church always has the option to bail out of tough, uncomfortaable situations, and sometimes it does. But...not always, and maybe not often. I'm not sure. Sometimes I imagine that God must have shuddered a bit when He decided to inclue free will in the attributes He gave to humans, knowing the crazy, horrible things we would do with it.
But I have to believe it is also part of the glory when we follow Christ fully in the hope He suffered so much to give us. Because the church always has the option to bail out of tough, uncomfortaable situations, and sometimes it does. But…not always, and maybe not often. I’m not sure.

]]> By: edgeofraisin http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-286957 edgeofraisin Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:12:25 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-286957 Ever notice that there is no group or place for abuse victims INSIDE the church? Ever notice that Christian preachers are NOT preaching sermons about spousal abuse? They are not telling men they don't have the right to treat their wives like a sexual possession or a slave FROM THE PULPIT? Why? What would Jesus be doing if he were here now? All the organisations that help people who have been abused by clergy and church people are outside of the church. The church people won't confront abusers. They blame and criticise the victims instead, or just push them away and try to pretend they don't exist. Why would any victim go to a group of Christians for help and support and love when this has happened to her/him? What do you think the chances are that she/he will be rejected, condemned, or lectured about how to forgive and return to the abuser again so he can continue abusing her? When Christians in a community or body start acting as Christ would in situations of abuse, that will be a sign of Christ's presence among them, and a sign that they are acting as The Church. I haven't seen it anywhere. I have found help from non-Christians, instead. Sad commentary, I think, as I went to my 'Christian leaders, brothers and sisters' first, over a period of years. No help there, only blame, disbelief, and tacit complicity with the abuser. He divorced me on false grounds of 'desertion' and still stands in the pulpit. Ever notice that there is no group or place for abuse victims INSIDE the church? Ever notice that Christian preachers are NOT preaching sermons about spousal abuse? They are not telling men they don’t have the right to treat their wives like a sexual possession or a slave FROM THE PULPIT? Why? What would Jesus be doing if he were here now? All the organisations that help people who have been abused by clergy and church people are outside of the church. The church people won’t confront abusers. They blame and criticise the victims instead, or just push them away and try to pretend they don’t exist. Why would any victim go to a group of Christians for help and support and love when this has happened to her/him? What do you think the chances are that she/he will be rejected, condemned, or lectured about how to forgive and return to the abuser again so he can continue abusing her? When Christians in a community or body start acting as Christ would in situations of abuse, that will be a sign of Christ’s presence among them, and a sign that they are acting as The Church. I haven’t seen it anywhere. I have found help from non-Christians, instead. Sad commentary, I think, as I went to my ‘Christian leaders, brothers and sisters’ first, over a period of years. No help there, only blame, disbelief, and tacit complicity with the abuser. He divorced me on false grounds of ‘desertion’ and still stands in the pulpit.

]]> By: Hannah http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-286911 Hannah Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:39:09 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-286911 Edge of Raisin: You are not alone in this situation, and I know God is grieved by it. I believe its called denial, and not wishing to come outside of their comfortable bubble. At times I wonder if they choose that road called, "The path of less resistance". Its easier to push it away rather than deal with it. Alot of men, women and children are in the same boat as you are...and my prayers are going up for you today! There are a number of organizations out there that will believe you, support you, and walk along side you in support, love and prayer. I hope you seek them out. You will find other spouses of leaders that can relate to what you are dealing with. I do believe that once a door is closed that God finds a way to open a new one. I ponder at times if he has some of us go thru this pain to grow so that we maybe able to help others as well. I can understand your lack of faith in the church, because it seems their faith is not strong enough. I pray that you break your isolation, and find fellowship with others to help each other and grow in a true relationship in Christ. IMonk: I really enjoyed this article. Thank you for writing it. Edge of Raisin:

You are not alone in this situation, and I know God is grieved by it. I believe its called denial, and not wishing to come outside of their comfortable bubble. At times I wonder if they choose that road called, “The path of less resistance”. Its easier to push it away rather than deal with it. Alot of men, women and children are in the same boat as you are…and my prayers are going up for you today!

There are a number of organizations out there that will believe you, support you, and walk along side you in support, love and prayer. I hope you seek them out. You will find other spouses of leaders that can relate to what you are dealing with.

I do believe that once a door is closed that God finds a way to open a new one. I ponder at times if he has some of us go thru this pain to grow so that we maybe able to help others as well. I can understand your lack of faith in the church, because it seems their faith is not strong enough. I pray that you break your isolation, and find fellowship with others to help each other and grow in a true relationship in Christ.

IMonk: I really enjoyed this article. Thank you for writing it.

]]> By: Anna A http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-286830 Anna A Sat, 13 Sep 2008 11:30:29 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-286830 Dear Edge of Raisin, My heart goes out to you. NO ONE should be treated as you were. I suspect that if Jesus would have some very harsh words for those who hurt you. (As he did about the religous leaders of his day) And also, invite you gently to come closer so that HE could give you a healing hug. Dear Edge of Raisin,

My heart goes out to you. NO ONE should be treated as you were.

I suspect that if Jesus would have some very harsh words for those who hurt you. (As he did about the religous leaders of his day) And also, invite you gently to come closer so that HE could give you a healing hug.

]]> By: edgeofraisin http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler/comment-page-1#comment-286571 edgeofraisin Sat, 13 Sep 2008 02:16:59 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-do-i-love-the-church-or-why-jesus-isn%e2%80%99t-an-enabler#comment-286571 As a confirmed member, contracted employee, and the spouse of a clergy person, I was abandoned and exiled by the church's leaders when I came to them for safety and help because of my husband's abuse. He is still working and supported by them. He kept my personal belongings and sold some of them. I have no idea how I am supposed to love a church that has betrayed and rejected and exiled me in order to protect one of its leaders. I would like an answer to this question, but no one seems to have one. No one has even offered to pray with me about it. I have lost my faith in the church as God's people, and lost my general sense of a personal God. I wish it weren't so, but I am not going to start being insincere and pretending now, just because that is what the church is doing. So, I tell the truth, and I live in isolation, while being called a liar. As a confirmed member, contracted employee, and the spouse of a clergy person, I was abandoned and exiled by the church’s leaders when I came to them for safety and help because of my husband’s abuse. He is still working and supported by them. He kept my personal belongings and sold some of them. I have no idea how I am supposed to love a church that has betrayed and rejected and exiled me in order to protect one of its leaders. I would like an answer to this question, but no one seems to have one. No one has even offered to pray with me about it. I have lost my faith in the church as God’s people, and lost my general sense of a personal God. I wish it weren’t so, but I am not going to start being insincere and pretending now, just because that is what the church is doing. So, I tell the truth, and I live in isolation, while being called a liar.

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