Comments on: Hold The Light For Me http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:14:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Unsolicited Advice for Those of You Going to Passion 2010: Community « Everyone’s Entitled to Joe’s Opinion http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-2#comment-506873 Unsolicited Advice for Those of You Going to Passion 2010: Community « Everyone’s Entitled to Joe’s Opinion Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:41:49 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-506873 [...] me at this point to direct your attention to a Michael Spencer post in which he talks about how important it is to be part of a community where we can talk freely and [...] [...] me at this point to direct your attention to a Michael Spencer post in which he talks about how important it is to be part of a community where we can talk freely and [...]

]]> By: DLE http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-1#comment-504537 DLE Tue, 28 Jul 2009 02:06:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-504537 Yes. If all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, then the Church is made up of people who fall short of the glory of God. It is hoped that as such people become more like Christ and less of what they were, that that ever-increasing glory will be revealed, but it will always be a shadow this side of heaven. For this reason, people in the church will always hurt us and we will forever linger on that hurt if we hang onto our old man. Dying to self is the only way around this. It's Job's "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." Such a person is so much closer to the Lord that the pain of this world retreats. Outer space is wickedly cold, but not a few feet from the sun! Yes.

If all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, then the Church is made up of people who fall short of the glory of God. It is hoped that as such people become more like Christ and less of what they were, that that ever-increasing glory will be revealed, but it will always be a shadow this side of heaven.

For this reason, people in the church will always hurt us and we will forever linger on that hurt if we hang onto our old man. Dying to self is the only way around this. It’s Job’s “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.” Such a person is so much closer to the Lord that the pain of this world retreats. Outer space is wickedly cold, but not a few feet from the sun!

]]> By: Jason http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-2#comment-504267 Jason Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:41:10 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-504267 Dan - I think you hit the nail on the head for me. My experience has been that, as with any organization, the "church" (little c) whether it be an "established church", or even a more fluid group such as a home church, has the potential for corruption and mission drift. It has also been my experience that the solution to both of these problems (apart from the obvious necessity of divine intervention) is a grassroots movement toward repentance and revival. In the context of authentic Christian relationships, the best way to ensure the church is a place where such relationships and such authenticity are nurtured and valued is for individual believers to start having such relationships and start living such authentic lives one person at a time. I think what iMonk is saying is that some church bodies (or maybe even some denominations) devalue such authenticity to the point that it become tremendously burdensome (perhaps even dangerous) to live an authentic Christian life within the confines of that body of believers. Certainly, I personally agree that if your church (little c) abuses your spiritual person, you should remove yourself from the abusive relationship and find another church. However, I also agree, as many have posted here, that the answer is not to withdraw to points of relative safety and then snipe at the structures and leadership of those churches. At the end of the day, we do, in fact owe obligations to the church (little c) to the extent it is the local and most tangible representation to us of the Church (big C). We are to gently correct those caught in sin, cautiously lest we also become entangled, and then we must bear one another's burdens. We cannot do this from our couches. We must live authentic lives among our fellow believers despite the risks that might accompany such an endeavor. I wish, as iMonk does, that more churches nurtured authenticity, but the answer to darkness within the church is not placing your own light under a bushel. Dan – I think you hit the nail on the head for me. My experience has been that, as with any organization, the “church” (little c) whether it be an “established church”, or even a more fluid group such as a home church, has the potential for corruption and mission drift. It has also been my experience that the solution to both of these problems (apart from the obvious necessity of divine intervention) is a grassroots movement toward repentance and revival. In the context of authentic Christian relationships, the best way to ensure the church is a place where such relationships and such authenticity are nurtured and valued is for individual believers to start having such relationships and start living such authentic lives one person at a time.

I think what iMonk is saying is that some church bodies (or maybe even some denominations) devalue such authenticity to the point that it become tremendously burdensome (perhaps even dangerous) to live an authentic Christian life within the confines of that body of believers.

Certainly, I personally agree that if your church (little c) abuses your spiritual person, you should remove yourself from the abusive relationship and find another church. However, I also agree, as many have posted here, that the answer is not to withdraw to points of relative safety and then snipe at the structures and leadership of those churches. At the end of the day, we do, in fact owe obligations to the church (little c) to the extent it is the local and most tangible representation to us of the Church (big C). We are to gently correct those caught in sin, cautiously lest we also become entangled, and then we must bear one another’s burdens. We cannot do this from our couches. We must live authentic lives among our fellow believers despite the risks that might accompany such an endeavor. I wish, as iMonk does, that more churches nurtured authenticity, but the answer to darkness within the church is not placing your own light under a bushel.

]]> By: dan http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-2#comment-504137 dan Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:48:09 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-504137 To me the confusion lies in what we really acknowledge as the church. Is it the denomination, your choice, or those that believe as Christ wants them to? Is not the later that which is called out in Revelation? As a person who decided that I was tired of the plastic rituals and whited tombs that many have become, I become more honest. There is a heavy price to pay for that, but being able to sleep at night, to have the assurance of Christ far out weighs human acceptance that you are a "good" Christian. If a few become honest it may catch on, I hope. Keep up with the hard hitting posts, some are on a journey, some need to start one. To me the confusion lies in what we really acknowledge as the church. Is it the denomination, your choice, or those that believe as Christ wants them to? Is not the later that which is called out in Revelation? As a person who decided that I was tired of the plastic rituals and whited tombs that many have become, I become more honest. There is a heavy price to pay for that, but being able to sleep at night, to have the assurance of Christ far out weighs human acceptance that you are a “good” Christian. If a few become honest it may catch on, I hope.

Keep up with the hard hitting posts, some are on a journey, some need to start one.

]]> By: mark from michigan http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-1#comment-504128 mark from michigan Fri, 24 Jul 2009 05:52:16 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-504128 Matthew... i felt the same way when i started going to AA meetings... Matthew…

i felt the same way when i started going to AA meetings…

]]> By: Jason http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-1#comment-504060 Jason Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:45:46 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-504060 iMonk - Thank you for your swift and thorough response. I guess part of my confusion may result from the fact that I do not come from a background where my church has a particularly strong hierarchical structure. (I grew up in the SBC, but left the denomination while attending Baylor University. Nothing like seeing the sausage made to sour you on a denomination. I now attend a non-denominational church, after stints with EV Free and Bible Churches). I cannot imagine anyone from my church leaning on me in such a way as to cause me to remove blog posts, etc., as has apparently happened to you. Then again, I am simply a layman at a small-ish non-denominational church, and am therefore presumably not doctrinally accountable to anyone the way someone in a more hierarchical denomination might be. iMonk -

Thank you for your swift and thorough response. I guess part of my confusion may result from the fact that I do not come from a background where my church has a particularly strong hierarchical structure. (I grew up in the SBC, but left the denomination while attending Baylor University. Nothing like seeing the sausage made to sour you on a denomination. I now attend a non-denominational church, after stints with EV Free and Bible Churches). I cannot imagine anyone from my church leaning on me in such a way as to cause me to remove blog posts, etc., as has apparently happened to you. Then again, I am simply a layman at a small-ish non-denominational church, and am therefore presumably not doctrinally accountable to anyone the way someone in a more hierarchical denomination might be.

]]> By: Mich http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-1#comment-504026 Mich Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:15:58 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-504026 Imonk, As usual a GREAT post. I think most of us have found the community you describe and define, here, online at your webiste! :-) I think more and more folks are asking your questions, but traditional Christianity doesn't want to answer them, or wants to use the Bible as a rule book. This is of course a gross oversimplification. Now with the Web, more and more believers are reading and discussing Wright, McKnight, Brown, iMonk,McLaren,etc. We are gravitating to the Web as a community where we can voice our questions, concerns and faith. Please keep posting, and God bless you! Imonk,
As usual a GREAT post. I think most of us have found the community you describe and define, here, online at your webiste!
:-)
I think more and more folks are asking your questions, but traditional Christianity doesn’t want to answer them, or wants to use the Bible as a rule book. This is of course a gross oversimplification. Now with the Web, more and more believers are reading and discussing Wright, McKnight, Brown, iMonk,McLaren,etc. We are gravitating to the Web as a community where we can voice our questions, concerns and faith. Please keep posting, and God bless you!

]]> By: Sensus Divinitatis News http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-1#comment-504004 Sensus Divinitatis News Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:08:32 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-504004 <strong>Hold The Light For Me...</strong> This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News.... Hold The Light For Me…

This post was chosen as newsworthy at Sensus Divinitatis News….

]]> By: Clay http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-1#comment-503903 Clay Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:04:04 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-503903 MP - House churches come in all shapes. To suggest that all house churches are as institutional as Presbyterian churches is simply wrong (ever read Frank Viola?). I don't suggest house churches are perfect or the answer for everyone, but I do believe they are as valid an expression of the Church of Christ as any institutional church. I was simply responding to your suggestion that those of us who gather in living rooms are doing so b/c we are feeling sorry for ourselves (maybe I misread your point). MP – House churches come in all shapes. To suggest that all house churches are as institutional as Presbyterian churches is simply wrong (ever read Frank Viola?). I don’t suggest house churches are perfect or the answer for everyone, but I do believe they are as valid an expression of the Church of Christ as any institutional church. I was simply responding to your suggestion that those of us who gather in living rooms are doing so b/c we are feeling sorry for ourselves (maybe I misread your point).

]]> By: Werther http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/hold-the-light-for-me/comment-page-1#comment-503891 Werther Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:21:25 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3786#comment-503891 My pleasure. Glad to be of service. (Sweeping bow) My pleasure. Glad to be of service.

(Sweeping bow)

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