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	<title>Comments on: Have We Said Too Much? (About Marriage, that is)</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Pinoy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-2#comment-457886</link>
		<dc:creator>Pinoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 07:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-457886</guid>
		<description>Many men which are mocked as “geeks” or “anti-feminists”  in their own country, have found brides in my country, the Philippines. Most Filipinas prefer Filipino men, but there are a number of sexy Filipinas, which are open to white men. 

Contrary to popular belief, a significant number of Filipinas, which marry white men, are happy to live with their rich white husband in the Philippines instead of immigrating to the white man&#039;s country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many men which are mocked as “geeks” or “anti-feminists”  in their own country, have found brides in my country, the Philippines. Most Filipinas prefer Filipino men, but there are a number of sexy Filipinas, which are open to white men. </p>
<p>Contrary to popular belief, a significant number of Filipinas, which marry white men, are happy to live with their rich white husband in the Philippines instead of immigrating to the white man&#8217;s country.</p>
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		<title>By: Myron Marston</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-1#comment-1436</link>
		<dc:creator>Myron Marston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-1436</guid>
		<description>Good essay, Michael.  As a single young man, I&#039;ve experienced a lot of the confusion you describe first hand.  I&#039;ve had friends who were afraid to spend time with members of the opposite sex for fear they would develop a crush on them and would mistake a crush for God&#039;s will in regards to marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good essay, Michael.  As a single young man, I&#8217;ve experienced a lot of the confusion you describe first hand.  I&#8217;ve had friends who were afraid to spend time with members of the opposite sex for fear they would develop a crush on them and would mistake a crush for God&#8217;s will in regards to marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: James Aguilar</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-1#comment-1437</link>
		<dc:creator>James Aguilar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-1437</guid>
		<description>I would second the first commenter, and additionally ask, &quot;Where do we find injunctions against dating in the Bible?&quot;  Nowhere.  Good essay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would second the first commenter, and additionally ask, &#8220;Where do we find injunctions against dating in the Bible?&#8221;  Nowhere.  Good essay.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-1#comment-1438</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-1438</guid>
		<description>Definitely some good material here, although I don&#039;t agree that the church has overemphasized marriage.  Perhaps, to a degree, there has been a failure to communicate the theological foundation and meaning of marriage, which has resulted in a widespread shallow understanding of it and a divorce rate within our churches that doesn&#039;t fare any better than the culture.  I see Dr. Mohler as one of the voices seeking to proclaim not just tips on finding a mate or how to communicate better with your spouse (as helpful as those are), but marriage as a theological issue that, as you say, &quot;derives its meaning and beauty from Jesus.&quot;

Furthermore, I welcome Dr. Mohler&#039;s call for younger marriage because of the trend in our culture toward having everything in our lives settled--education, career, home--before finally deciding to marry, and then waiting even longer before having children, when the biological capabilities of conception have considerably degenerated.  I&#039;m not saying that I can prescribe a rigid rule for everyone (&quot;you must be married by this age!&quot;), nor do I think that there is never ANY good reason to wait, but clearly we have bought into the pervasive idea that career and education must have priority over family.  This has been one factor in the widespread sexual immorality in our culture, as well as a widespread view of children as a burden rather than a blessing.  Dr. Mohler&#039;s pro-family message is appropriately countercultural.

As one who married at age 20 while still in college (and still today working on a M.Div. at Southern), I know that it was the right thing to do.  We will always cherish these early years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitely some good material here, although I don&#8217;t agree that the church has overemphasized marriage.  Perhaps, to a degree, there has been a failure to communicate the theological foundation and meaning of marriage, which has resulted in a widespread shallow understanding of it and a divorce rate within our churches that doesn&#8217;t fare any better than the culture.  I see Dr. Mohler as one of the voices seeking to proclaim not just tips on finding a mate or how to communicate better with your spouse (as helpful as those are), but marriage as a theological issue that, as you say, &#8220;derives its meaning and beauty from Jesus.&#8221;</p>
<p>Furthermore, I welcome Dr. Mohler&#8217;s call for younger marriage because of the trend in our culture toward having everything in our lives settled&#8211;education, career, home&#8211;before finally deciding to marry, and then waiting even longer before having children, when the biological capabilities of conception have considerably degenerated.  I&#8217;m not saying that I can prescribe a rigid rule for everyone (&#8220;you must be married by this age!&#8221;), nor do I think that there is never ANY good reason to wait, but clearly we have bought into the pervasive idea that career and education must have priority over family.  This has been one factor in the widespread sexual immorality in our culture, as well as a widespread view of children as a burden rather than a blessing.  Dr. Mohler&#8217;s pro-family message is appropriately countercultural.</p>
<p>As one who married at age 20 while still in college (and still today working on a M.Div. at Southern), I know that it was the right thing to do.  We will always cherish these early years.</p>
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		<title>By: imonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-1#comment-1439</link>
		<dc:creator>imonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-1439</guid>
		<description>Aaron, I&#039;ll pick on you :-) 

Your experience of &quot;good early years&quot; is not the only experience. In fact, the brunt of divorces and serious marriage problems I have encountered in the church are in the first 1-7 years and among those who married 18-22.

Which proves....nothing, except there is no way to generalize, and I think Dr. Mohler is generalizing, and it bothers me that such a culture savvy guy would give advice that, to me, is going to result in a lot of divorces, children in broken homes, etc.

Why? Because Christians think their marriages are better automatically because they are Christian. They think God will make it work. Bullxxxt. They set records for immaturity, screwed up emotions, denial and don&#039;t even get me started on sex issues.

I just hear all this and I don&#039;t see it in the Bible. I LOVE Dr. Mohler. He is a hero to me, but I don&#039;t see the foundational role of marriage leading to an advocacy of early marriage. That&#039;s a leap that isn&#039;t warranted. Every person needs to decide for themselves when they are mature enough for this step. There is a lot of mythology in Dr. Mohler&#039;s view. It&#039;s mythology about doing something positive in the culture, but its still mythology.

Of course, I could be wrong :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron, I&#8217;ll pick on you <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>Your experience of &#8220;good early years&#8221; is not the only experience. In fact, the brunt of divorces and serious marriage problems I have encountered in the church are in the first 1-7 years and among those who married 18-22.</p>
<p>Which proves&#8230;.nothing, except there is no way to generalize, and I think Dr. Mohler is generalizing, and it bothers me that such a culture savvy guy would give advice that, to me, is going to result in a lot of divorces, children in broken homes, etc.</p>
<p>Why? Because Christians think their marriages are better automatically because they are Christian. They think God will make it work. Bullxxxt. They set records for immaturity, screwed up emotions, denial and don&#8217;t even get me started on sex issues.</p>
<p>I just hear all this and I don&#8217;t see it in the Bible. I LOVE Dr. Mohler. He is a hero to me, but I don&#8217;t see the foundational role of marriage leading to an advocacy of early marriage. That&#8217;s a leap that isn&#8217;t warranted. Every person needs to decide for themselves when they are mature enough for this step. There is a lot of mythology in Dr. Mohler&#8217;s view. It&#8217;s mythology about doing something positive in the culture, but its still mythology.</p>
<p>Of course, I could be wrong <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: imonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-1#comment-1440</link>
		<dc:creator>imonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-1440</guid>
		<description>&gt;but clearly we have bought into the pervasive idea that career and education must have priority over family. This has been one factor in the widespread sexual immorality in our culture,

Aaron, forgive two responses, but I can&#039;t stop typing! :-)

1) Where does the Bible teach anything that authoritatively says we should be married before completing education or achieving career goals?

2) How do we conclude that sexual immorality is a function of cultural trends? Don&#039;t Mark 7 and Romans 1 make clear that a Christian analysis of sexual immorality isn&#039;t to blame the culture, but our own depravity? Isn&#039;t this buying into the &quot;salvation by marriage&quot; message that I find disturbing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>but clearly we have bought into the pervasive idea that career and education must have priority over family. This has been one factor in the widespread sexual immorality in our culture,</p>
<p>Aaron, forgive two responses, but I can&#8217;t stop typing! <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>1) Where does the Bible teach anything that authoritatively says we should be married before completing education or achieving career goals?</p>
<p>2) How do we conclude that sexual immorality is a function of cultural trends? Don&#8217;t <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Mark+7" class="bibleref" title="ESV Mark 7">Mark 7</a> and <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Romans+1" class="bibleref" title="ESV Romans 1">Romans 1</a> make clear that a Christian analysis of sexual immorality isn&#8217;t to blame the culture, but our own depravity? Isn&#8217;t this buying into the &#8220;salvation by marriage&#8221; message that I find disturbing?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Smyczynski</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-1#comment-1441</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Smyczynski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-1441</guid>
		<description>Oh man, I hate &quot;single ministry.&quot; The church schedule ends up looking like this:

Thursday night: Alcoholics ministry
Friday night: Singles ministry
Saturday night: Homosexuals ministry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh man, I hate &#8220;single ministry.&#8221; The church schedule ends up looking like this:</p>
<p>Thursday night: Alcoholics ministry<br />
Friday night: Singles ministry<br />
Saturday night: Homosexuals ministry</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Whittinghill</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-1#comment-1442</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Whittinghill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-1442</guid>
		<description>Matt:  You may appreciate this spoof at Lark News.
www.larknews.com/march_2005/secondary.php?page=5</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt:  You may appreciate this spoof at Lark News.<br />
<a href="http://www.larknews.com/march_2005/secondary.php?page=5" rel="nofollow">http://www.larknews.com/march_2005/secondary.php?page=5</a></p>
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		<title>By: Meg</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-1#comment-1443</link>
		<dc:creator>Meg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-1443</guid>
		<description>Spoken like an old married guy who already has his spouse and children.  And the rest of you guys (except Aaron): scared to death of committing to one woman &#039;til death do you part?

I heard a statistic that said: for every single Christian guy who walks into a church, there are a least 3 available Christian women waiting for him.  How rich.  You guys get to choose, while we girls have to wait to be chosen.  And the shortage of available Christian men is not just an American problem, it&#039;s global.  You know that biological clock starts sounding like a ticking time-bomb to us, whilst you guys figure you can father children til the cows come home.

So you don&#039;t think there&#039;s a problem here?  Statistics are showing the birth-rate in America is down across the board. Infertility is not just a problem of the 30 &amp; 40 somethings.  Lest we forget Psalm 127:3...&quot;Children are a gift from the Lord...a reward from Him.&quot;  Not some pain in our butt that must be indured after we&#039;ve sown our oats.  We are a spoiled lot. 

If I had only known in my twenties what I know now, I would have pursued a husband with a vengence.  God help us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spoken like an old married guy who already has his spouse and children.  And the rest of you guys (except Aaron): scared to death of committing to one woman &#8217;til death do you part?</p>
<p>I heard a statistic that said: for every single Christian guy who walks into a church, there are a least 3 available Christian women waiting for him.  How rich.  You guys get to choose, while we girls have to wait to be chosen.  And the shortage of available Christian men is not just an American problem, it&#8217;s global.  You know that biological clock starts sounding like a ticking time-bomb to us, whilst you guys figure you can father children til the cows come home.</p>
<p>So you don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s a problem here?  Statistics are showing the birth-rate in America is down across the board. Infertility is not just a problem of the 30 &#038; 40 somethings.  Lest we forget <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Psalm+127%3A3" class="bibleref" title="ESV Psalm 127:3">Psalm 127:3</a>&#8230;&#8221;Children are a gift from the Lord&#8230;a reward from Him.&#8221;  Not some pain in our butt that must be indured after we&#8217;ve sown our oats.  We are a spoiled lot. </p>
<p>If I had only known in my twenties what I know now, I would have pursued a husband with a vengence.  God help us.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/have-we-said-too-much-about-marriage-that-is/comment-page-1#comment-1444</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=124#comment-1444</guid>
		<description>As an &quot;older&quot; (somewhere between 30-40, exact details classified) single, and one who has been in the church for most of my adult life, I have seen that evangelical churches tend towards one of two opposing extremes regarding singles.

1) Overemphasizing marriage.  You&#039;re on target here, Mike, especially with churches in the &quot;cultural warrior&quot; mode. But where you don&#039;t see this, you tend to get instead...

2) Overemphasizing &quot;happy singleness&quot;. If you just immerse yourself in doing the Lord&#039;s work, you won&#039;t worry about finding a mate!  (Most of the books supporting this view are either written by elderly singles, or - irony of ironies - married people).

My problem is (and I suspect many others have the same problem), I don&#039;t fit in either category.  Is singleness a state where one can honor God?  Certainly!  And I&#039;m sure there are those (like St. Paul) who could enjoy it at the same time.  I&#039;m not one of those.  And, with all due respect, Dr. Mohler, all I can say is that perhaps some older singles *are* just blowing off marriage, for selfish reasons. But, there are also those of us who would like to be married - but it just isn&#039;t like it was when you were young.  Try walking a mile in our moccasins before you chew us out for not having walked down the aisle by the time we&#039;re 25.  Some just can&#039;t find eligible mates in their area.  Some are still bearing the hurts from being burned (or worse) by the dating system/their parents&#039; marital failures/being abused. Some (like me) just don&#039;t fit the cultural norms for being attractive (and that does count for &quot;datability&quot;, even in the church - whenever *I&#039;ve* tried to &quot;take the lead&quot;, I&#039;ve been shot down).  Slogging through life fighting (and yes, sometimes losing to) sexual temptation is a long, hard, and lonely road. And being slammed from both sides of the divide (&quot;Just get married!&quot;  &quot;Just let go and love God!&quot;) does NOT help, one little bit.

You don&#039;t like that we&#039;re not married, Dr. Mohler?  Then mentor us.  Talk to us.  Invite us over to your house on holidays, when we may not have our own family to be with.  Pray for us.  Heck, even introduce us to some eligible friends you may know! (Arranged marriages are more biblical than &quot;courtship&quot;, anyways ;-} )

It&#039;s easy to chew someone out for not being married, or not enjoying being single.  Finding someone who can speak the wisdom of Christ to a single&#039;s peculiar (individual) situation, good or bad, is something else again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an &#8220;older&#8221; (somewhere between 30-40, exact details classified) single, and one who has been in the church for most of my adult life, I have seen that evangelical churches tend towards one of two opposing extremes regarding singles.</p>
<p>1) Overemphasizing marriage.  You&#8217;re on target here, Mike, especially with churches in the &#8220;cultural warrior&#8221; mode. But where you don&#8217;t see this, you tend to get instead&#8230;</p>
<p>2) Overemphasizing &#8220;happy singleness&#8221;. If you just immerse yourself in doing the Lord&#8217;s work, you won&#8217;t worry about finding a mate!  (Most of the books supporting this view are either written by elderly singles, or &#8211; irony of ironies &#8211; married people).</p>
<p>My problem is (and I suspect many others have the same problem), I don&#8217;t fit in either category.  Is singleness a state where one can honor God?  Certainly!  And I&#8217;m sure there are those (like St. Paul) who could enjoy it at the same time.  I&#8217;m not one of those.  And, with all due respect, Dr. Mohler, all I can say is that perhaps some older singles *are* just blowing off marriage, for selfish reasons. But, there are also those of us who would like to be married &#8211; but it just isn&#8217;t like it was when you were young.  Try walking a mile in our moccasins before you chew us out for not having walked down the aisle by the time we&#8217;re 25.  Some just can&#8217;t find eligible mates in their area.  Some are still bearing the hurts from being burned (or worse) by the dating system/their parents&#8217; marital failures/being abused. Some (like me) just don&#8217;t fit the cultural norms for being attractive (and that does count for &#8220;datability&#8221;, even in the church &#8211; whenever *I&#8217;ve* tried to &#8220;take the lead&#8221;, I&#8217;ve been shot down).  Slogging through life fighting (and yes, sometimes losing to) sexual temptation is a long, hard, and lonely road. And being slammed from both sides of the divide (&#8220;Just get married!&#8221;  &#8220;Just let go and love God!&#8221;) does NOT help, one little bit.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t like that we&#8217;re not married, Dr. Mohler?  Then mentor us.  Talk to us.  Invite us over to your house on holidays, when we may not have our own family to be with.  Pray for us.  Heck, even introduce us to some eligible friends you may know! (Arranged marriages are more biblical than &#8220;courtship&#8221;, anyways ;-} )</p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to chew someone out for not being married, or not enjoying being single.  Finding someone who can speak the wisdom of Christ to a single&#8217;s peculiar (individual) situation, good or bad, is something else again.</p>
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