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	<title>Comments on: Grace Is As Dangerous As Ever</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: scott</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-202246</link>
		<dc:creator>scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 02:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Michael wonderfully done. I am always looking for someone who says what Capon says. You do that adding different detail. Grace is counter intuitive. The new covenant is really more difficult than the old covenant. Anybody can (first covenant) depend on their own efforts with the corresponding responses of rationalizing their sin, despairing over it, or growing angry that God made us with sinfull desires. To accept the fact that you are forgiven and chosen from eternity no matter what you do or don&#039;t do goes against all we know of justice and how things work. But it is good news for those who know they have nothing to bring to the altar...not even good motives or more resolve to improve or even sorrow. To be forgiven with no strings attached is scandalous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael wonderfully done. I am always looking for someone who says what Capon says. You do that adding different detail. Grace is counter intuitive. The new covenant is really more difficult than the old covenant. Anybody can (first covenant) depend on their own efforts with the corresponding responses of rationalizing their sin, despairing over it, or growing angry that God made us with sinfull desires. To accept the fact that you are forgiven and chosen from eternity no matter what you do or don&#8217;t do goes against all we know of justice and how things work. But it is good news for those who know they have nothing to bring to the altar&#8230;not even good motives or more resolve to improve or even sorrow. To be forgiven with no strings attached is scandalous.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-95079</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jun 2007 02:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever#comment-95079</guid>
		<description>Responding to Jason Mannings comments:

Perhaps &quot;overide&quot; is a wrong termonlogy to use, as it implies that I&#039;m minimizing the law of stoning for a law of love.  But I would not take the view that these laws contradict each other; only that the Lord shows us how to deal with the law of the first covenant as children of God.  Under the first covenant (what the religious leaders of Jesus&#039; time had access to), they could only adhere to the written code by doing their best against that standard.  But Jesus (as our God and example) was teaching us the principles of the New covenant; namely that as we operate under the &quot;fruit of the Spirit&quot; we are not under the law of the letter.  We do in effect supercede one covenant for the fruit of another.

There is no problem with the cross of Christ accomplishing everything for this New covenant.  However, during His earthly ministry, wasn&#039;t the Lord giving us an example of the &quot;law of Christ&quot; in action?  And my theory is that living by the fruit of the Spirit (which apparently can&#039;t be done simultaneously with the law of Moses because it uses two very different methods of operation) puts on a demension of pleasing the Lord that the first covenant could not.

I am not one of those who say that the law of Moses is no longer in existance; only that there is a different way to deal with that everlasting law of God as believers in Christ.  Hope that&#039;s not too confusing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Responding to Jason Mannings comments:</p>
<p>Perhaps &#8220;overide&#8221; is a wrong termonlogy to use, as it implies that I&#8217;m minimizing the law of stoning for a law of love.  But I would not take the view that these laws contradict each other; only that the Lord shows us how to deal with the law of the first covenant as children of God.  Under the first covenant (what the religious leaders of Jesus&#8217; time had access to), they could only adhere to the written code by doing their best against that standard.  But Jesus (as our God and example) was teaching us the principles of the New covenant; namely that as we operate under the &#8220;fruit of the Spirit&#8221; we are not under the law of the letter.  We do in effect supercede one covenant for the fruit of another.</p>
<p>There is no problem with the cross of Christ accomplishing everything for this New covenant.  However, during His earthly ministry, wasn&#8217;t the Lord giving us an example of the &#8220;law of Christ&#8221; in action?  And my theory is that living by the fruit of the Spirit (which apparently can&#8217;t be done simultaneously with the law of Moses because it uses two very different methods of operation) puts on a demension of pleasing the Lord that the first covenant could not.</p>
<p>I am not one of those who say that the law of Moses is no longer in existance; only that there is a different way to deal with that everlasting law of God as believers in Christ.  Hope that&#8217;s not too confusing.</p>
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		<title>By: Gene Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-92374</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 15:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever#comment-92374</guid>
		<description>Actually, Jazzki, I don&#039;t mean that that righteousness is based on Jesus&#039; forgiveness.  I mean that you are able to do right because of the change in your innermost being. (A result of contact with Him.) A change that results in God living out righteousness through you. You accept Jesus&#039; and he buys you from the Master known as Sin to which you are/were enslaved, and makes you a slave to Himself.  Alas, not a perfect slave, but a slave none the less, doing the bidding of the new Master.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Jazzki, I don&#8217;t mean that that righteousness is based on Jesus&#8217; forgiveness.  I mean that you are able to do right because of the change in your innermost being. (A result of contact with Him.) A change that results in God living out righteousness through you. You accept Jesus&#8217; and he buys you from the Master known as Sin to which you are/were enslaved, and makes you a slave to Himself.  Alas, not a perfect slave, but a slave none the less, doing the bidding of the new Master.</p>
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		<title>By: Jazzki</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-92192</link>
		<dc:creator>Jazzki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2007 21:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever#comment-92192</guid>
		<description>****…then out of that new inner being will emerge righteousness. The righteousness of Christ in us. Then we can go “and sin no more.&quot;**** OK, Gene, so if I understand rightly, you&#039;re saying that Jesus&#039; injunction here is not to be taken literally, just as &quot;pluck out your eye&quot; and &quot;chop off your hand&quot; are not to be.  It is more a case of &quot;Now go and live aright based on My 4giveness.&quot;  Or, as ROMANS 6 puts it, &quot;Walk in newness of life.&quot; Could a paraphrase be, &quot;Go and grow in grace&quot;?  That would make a lot of sense.

Bec. we know that Jesus wouldn&#039;t be ignorant of what Paul describes later in ROMANS 7.

But this still leaves the problem of that verse in CORINTHIANS, and a kindred one in REVELATION, &quot;Your works are not complete.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>****…then out of that new inner being will emerge righteousness. The righteousness of Christ in us. Then we can go “and sin no more.&#8221;**** OK, Gene, so if I understand rightly, you&#8217;re saying that Jesus&#8217; injunction here is not to be taken literally, just as &#8220;pluck out your eye&#8221; and &#8220;chop off your hand&#8221; are not to be.  It is more a case of &#8220;Now go and live aright based on My 4giveness.&#8221;  Or, as ROMANS 6 puts it, &#8220;Walk in newness of life.&#8221; Could a paraphrase be, &#8220;Go and grow in grace&#8221;?  That would make a lot of sense.</p>
<p>Bec. we know that Jesus wouldn&#8217;t be ignorant of what Paul describes later in ROMANS 7.</p>
<p>But this still leaves the problem of that verse in CORINTHIANS, and a kindred one in REVELATION, &#8220;Your works are not complete.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Manning</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-92052</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Manning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2007 21:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever#comment-92052</guid>
		<description>As to what Adrian said, 

I&#039;d say be careful thinking one can always overide one law with another law.  Jesus does not do away with the Law of Stoning by the Law of Love...Rather He doesn&#039;t cast the stone now, because he takes the stone later for her on the cross.  Justice isn&#039;t done away with by love, it is fulfilled by love when Jesus takes the stone for her on the cross.

I&#039;ve heard the &quot;overide&quot; principle used to do away with many commands God expects of Christians because this person can perform mental gymnastics and say &quot;God doesn&#039;t expect me to do X because I&#039;ve pasted over it with command Y&quot;

Such thinking neuters the bible with the bible.  I know you don&#039;t mean that, but I&#039;ve had to deal with that working with youth until my claws come out...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As to what Adrian said, </p>
<p>I&#8217;d say be careful thinking one can always overide one law with another law.  Jesus does not do away with the Law of Stoning by the Law of Love&#8230;Rather He doesn&#8217;t cast the stone now, because he takes the stone later for her on the cross.  Justice isn&#8217;t done away with by love, it is fulfilled by love when Jesus takes the stone for her on the cross.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard the &#8220;overide&#8221; principle used to do away with many commands God expects of Christians because this person can perform mental gymnastics and say &#8220;God doesn&#8217;t expect me to do X because I&#8217;ve pasted over it with command Y&#8221;</p>
<p>Such thinking neuters the bible with the bible.  I know you don&#8217;t mean that, but I&#8217;ve had to deal with that working with youth until my claws come out&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gene Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-92007</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2007 13:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever#comment-92007</guid>
		<description>I think we often get the cart before the horse. The woman is changed by her contact with Jesus.  Because of that change she will now act differently (Mk 7:21).  Acting differently is at the heart of repentance.  Repentance brings the grace of forgiveness.

We fail when we try the Pharisaical method of righteousness: controlling the sin directly and ignoring the driving force behind the sin. The failure of the law is in its inability to change us, or even to significantly control us.

What we must do, I believe, is allow Jesus to change our inner being, our deepest beliefs--then out of that new inner being will emerge righteousness.  The righteousness of Christ in us.  Then we can go &quot;and sin no more.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we often get the cart before the horse. The woman is changed by her contact with Jesus.  Because of that change she will now act differently (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Mk+7%3A21" class="bibleref" title="ESV Mk 7:21">Mk 7:21</a>).  Acting differently is at the heart of repentance.  Repentance brings the grace of forgiveness.</p>
<p>We fail when we try the Pharisaical method of righteousness: controlling the sin directly and ignoring the driving force behind the sin. The failure of the law is in its inability to change us, or even to significantly control us.</p>
<p>What we must do, I believe, is allow Jesus to change our inner being, our deepest beliefs&#8211;then out of that new inner being will emerge righteousness.  The righteousness of Christ in us.  Then we can go &#8220;and sin no more.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-91936</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2007 02:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever#comment-91936</guid>
		<description>One interesting aspect of this story is the fact that Jesus (in being totally obedient to God&#039;s law) is required to pick up the first stone and throw it at the woman.  By not doing this, is He breaking God&#039;s law?  I would say &quot;No&quot; because He &quot;overrides&quot; the Law of Moses with the law of love; that is, the weightier issues of compassion, mercy, love, and forgiveness.  Therefore, He fulfills the strictness of God&#039;s law with love.  So, if one could accuse Jesus of breaking the law, as usual the Lord &quot;had an ace up His sleeve&quot; and had to instruct us deeper things of God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One interesting aspect of this story is the fact that Jesus (in being totally obedient to God&#8217;s law) is required to pick up the first stone and throw it at the woman.  By not doing this, is He breaking God&#8217;s law?  I would say &#8220;No&#8221; because He &#8220;overrides&#8221; the Law of Moses with the law of love; that is, the weightier issues of compassion, mercy, love, and forgiveness.  Therefore, He fulfills the strictness of God&#8217;s law with love.  So, if one could accuse Jesus of breaking the law, as usual the Lord &#8220;had an ace up His sleeve&#8221; and had to instruct us deeper things of God.</p>
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		<title>By: Jazzki</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-91786</link>
		<dc:creator>Jazzki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2007 06:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever#comment-91786</guid>
		<description>Michael, I have to echo the question about &quot;go and sin no more,&quot; not to be cantankerous, mind you, but bec. that verse sums up what has for the whole 32 years of my believership puzzled me (nay, **TERRORIZED** me and given me sore trouble with assurance) thruout the N.T., viz. on the one hand grace, yet on the other hand always what seems to be a contradiction of it.  On the one hand, &quot;as far as the East is from the West, so far has He cast your sins from His view&quot; (I&#039;m paraphrasing of course) but on the other hand, &quot;we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body,&quot; which is then immediately followed by another &quot;encouraging&quot; verse, &quot;Knowing then the terror of the LORD...&quot;  If our sins are forgiven and forgotten, why in tarnation would they then be brought up again at the end?  It makes ZERO sense, and it really makes it hard to be keen on witnessing.  

And guess what, I have scoured the commentaries and worn my lips thin asking pastors, and nobody can answer the question.  They either pat me on the head and tell me I&#039;ve got psychological problems, or they suggest &quot;can&#039;t you just trust Him?&quot; or they accuse me of &quot;residual Purgatory teaching in your system&quot;---LMTO!!!---(never mind that I was never a Catholic nor had the slightest Catholic leanings), or they advise me to memorize one of the many comforting verses (which is a &quot;remedy&quot; I had already unsuccessfully tried for many years before they ever brushed me off that way), or they say to &quot;rest in the character of Christ,&quot; (yes, but it is precisely the &quot;character of Christ&quot; that tells me to go and sin no more, for crying out loud!), or some other bromide.  But the answer to the conundrum?  Not a one of them has it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I have to echo the question about &#8220;go and sin no more,&#8221; not to be cantankerous, mind you, but bec. that verse sums up what has for the whole 32 years of my believership puzzled me (nay, **TERRORIZED** me and given me sore trouble with assurance) thruout the N.T., viz. on the one hand grace, yet on the other hand always what seems to be a contradiction of it.  On the one hand, &#8220;as far as the East is from the West, so far has He cast your sins from His view&#8221; (I&#8217;m paraphrasing of course) but on the other hand, &#8220;we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body,&#8221; which is then immediately followed by another &#8220;encouraging&#8221; verse, &#8220;Knowing then the terror of the LORD&#8230;&#8221;  If our sins are forgiven and forgotten, why in tarnation would they then be brought up again at the end?  It makes ZERO sense, and it really makes it hard to be keen on witnessing.  </p>
<p>And guess what, I have scoured the commentaries and worn my lips thin asking pastors, and nobody can answer the question.  They either pat me on the head and tell me I&#8217;ve got psychological problems, or they suggest &#8220;can&#8217;t you just trust Him?&#8221; or they accuse me of &#8220;residual Purgatory teaching in your system&#8221;&#8212;LMTO!!!&#8212;(never mind that I was never a Catholic nor had the slightest Catholic leanings), or they advise me to memorize one of the many comforting verses (which is a &#8220;remedy&#8221; I had already unsuccessfully tried for many years before they ever brushed me off that way), or they say to &#8220;rest in the character of Christ,&#8221; (yes, but it is precisely the &#8220;character of Christ&#8221; that tells me to go and sin no more, for crying out loud!), or some other bromide.  But the answer to the conundrum?  Not a one of them has it.</p>
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		<title>By: phil_style</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-91560</link>
		<dc:creator>phil_style</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2007 03:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever#comment-91560</guid>
		<description>Michael,

I&#039;m keen to reiterate some of the comments already posted here:

1. The paraphrase of &quot;go live your life&quot; does seem to be a generous interpretation of the more common translation &quot;go and sin no more&quot;. Is it possible for you to look at this further?
2. Should this passage really both later addition, and not a real record of anything Jesus said, are there other examples from the Gospels that demonstrate such &quot;gracious&quot; words from Christ that are not linked to ongoing requirements for observance of law (or not sinning). It seems to me that this story reflects a great deal of Pauline thinking and is, in some respects, no entirely consistent with the Gospel Jesus, who encourages continued obedience to the law.

Although I realise that 2000 years of scholarship have already been directed at question 2 (and probably 1 also) and that the internet never really gives us the space to properly discuss these issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m keen to reiterate some of the comments already posted here:</p>
<p>1. The paraphrase of &#8220;go live your life&#8221; does seem to be a generous interpretation of the more common translation &#8220;go and sin no more&#8221;. Is it possible for you to look at this further?<br />
2. Should this passage really both later addition, and not a real record of anything Jesus said, are there other examples from the Gospels that demonstrate such &#8220;gracious&#8221; words from Christ that are not linked to ongoing requirements for observance of law (or not sinning). It seems to me that this story reflects a great deal of Pauline thinking and is, in some respects, no entirely consistent with the Gospel Jesus, who encourages continued obedience to the law.</p>
<p>Although I realise that 2000 years of scholarship have already been directed at question 2 (and probably 1 also) and that the internet never really gives us the space to properly discuss these issues.</p>
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		<title>By: DaveD</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever/comment-page-1#comment-91558</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2007 02:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/grace-is-as-dangerous-as-ever#comment-91558</guid>
		<description>Great post Michael.  I especially enjoy how you weaved the OT into your message on grace.  I think that we all too often neglect the OT in our exploration of God&#039;s grace!  Well done, preach on!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Michael.  I especially enjoy how you weaved the OT into your message on grace.  I think that we all too often neglect the OT in our exploration of God&#8217;s grace!  Well done, preach on!</p>
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