Comments on: Good-bye to 2008 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008 ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:52:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: FRISCOSAN http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-2#comment-350244 FRISCOSAN Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:07:38 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-350244 I am filled with love for each of you. Your are a community as God is the community into which we are all beckoned. Don't ever stop your search for the missing ingredient in you and your churches. I found it after much effort. I didn't leave my church but I did shake much dust from my feet. I found what was missing in a very unlikely place. It is in my heart right where God said He put it. I was led to it by, of all people, Jesus himself. The discovery started when I was ready to learn from Him and I "happened" to read the title of the first chapter in a book: "What did Jesus teach?" Huh, I already know what Jesus teaches, I thought. I was wrong. My knowledge of what Jesus teaches was only as deep as the ink on the paper. So much for my great teachers; the clergy of the various churches, the theolgians, the philosophers the modern day Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes who lay heavy burdens on us. These are the only folks that anger Jesus for the harm they do to his sheep with their superficial understanding and preaching. It was St. Thomas of Aquinas himself who said to his amanuensis "Take all these books I have written and burn them for they are worth only but straw". This happened after Thomas experienced Jesus revelation directly while offering the Eucharist. He never wrote another word of theology. He had received the missing ingredient. So, what did Jesus really teach? So few seem to know. The scriptures have at least ten levels of understanding, according to some medieval scholars. The ink was not deep enough for me. When I mined Jesus teachings, I encountered great treasures of understanding put there for me to find when I became humble enough to ask, seek, knock. I did have to sell all that I had intellectually relied upon but it was only the garbage Paul said it was. It is clear to me that there are some major problems with the translation, interpretation and application of Jesus teaching. The only way to know for sure is to judge by the fruits, as Jesus taught. The fruits of the prevailing churchy scene were not enough for me, or you, I gather. I had to let Him reveal to me understanding of what He taught and then I had live it to see if it worked, which it does. I found it amazingly simple. All great things are simple. Today, I hang out with churchy people in hopes of passing Jesus' true teaching along. Though the churchy ones clearly love me, they always joke of burning me at the stake for my outrageous, but refreshing, insights into the scriptures and the current secular/religious scene. It must be good because even the churchiest people eventually see at least some of the light I must try to bring. It is said we are all created with a tiny crack in our skulls, that His light might someday penetrate. I am glad that I can readily admit I am the greatest of sinners and totally unable to make myself or anyone else sinless. It keeps me humble enough to remember that God created me worthy and that I cannot improve on His work. What I can do is unlearn what I learned from the ignorant and gullible people who taught me the great untruths they believed in about their and my unworthiness. Today I am a spiritual being first, then a Christian, then a church member. Happiest New Year to you all! I am filled with love for each of you. Your are a community as God is the community into which we are all beckoned. Don’t ever stop your search for the missing ingredient in you and your churches. I found it after much effort. I didn’t leave my church but I did shake much dust from my feet. I found what was missing in a very unlikely place. It is in my heart right where God said He put it. I was led to it by, of all people, Jesus himself. The discovery started when I was ready to learn from Him and I “happened” to read the title of the first chapter in a book: “What did Jesus teach?” Huh, I already know what Jesus teaches, I thought. I was wrong. My knowledge of what Jesus teaches was only as deep as the ink on the paper. So much for my great teachers; the clergy of the various churches, the theolgians, the philosophers the modern day Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes who lay heavy burdens on us. These are the only folks that anger Jesus for the harm they do to his sheep with their superficial understanding and preaching. It was St. Thomas of Aquinas himself who said to his amanuensis “Take all these books I have written and burn them for they are worth only but straw”. This happened after Thomas experienced Jesus revelation directly while offering the Eucharist. He never wrote another word of theology. He had received the missing ingredient. So, what did Jesus really teach? So few seem to know. The scriptures have at least ten levels of understanding, according to some medieval scholars. The ink was not deep enough for me. When I mined Jesus teachings, I encountered great treasures of understanding put there for me to find when I became humble enough to ask, seek, knock. I did have to sell all that I had intellectually relied upon but it was only the garbage Paul said it was. It is clear to me that there are some major problems with the translation, interpretation and application of Jesus teaching. The only way to know for sure is to judge by the fruits, as Jesus taught. The fruits of the prevailing churchy scene were not enough for me, or you, I gather. I had to let Him reveal to me understanding of what He taught and then I had live it to see if it worked, which it does. I found it amazingly simple. All great things are simple. Today, I hang out with churchy people in hopes of passing Jesus’ true teaching along. Though the churchy ones clearly love me, they always joke of burning me at the stake for my outrageous, but refreshing, insights into the scriptures and the current secular/religious scene. It must be good because even the churchiest people eventually see at least some of the light I must try to bring. It is said we are all created with a tiny crack in our skulls, that His light might someday penetrate. I am glad that I can readily admit I am the greatest of sinners and totally unable to make myself or anyone else sinless. It keeps me humble enough to remember that God created me worthy and that I cannot improve on His work. What I can do is unlearn what I learned from the ignorant and gullible people who taught me the great untruths they believed in about their and my unworthiness. Today I am a spiritual being first, then a Christian, then a church member.
Happiest New Year to you all!

]]> By: Bob Dixon http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-2#comment-350229 Bob Dixon Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:54:08 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-350229 I've followed this blog off an on for a number of years and through an ongoing crisis of faith that seems to actually be where I'm supposed to be. i.e. I guess I'm not called to the "comfort zone" of certainty I was expecting. Your ideas have meant a lot to me and have really helped me define what I think Christ was and is trying to tell us. Thanks for being there for me. I know you have written kind things about Catholicism in the past, but I was surprised to read the item about your wife's conversion. As a Mormon married to someone who has gone back from Mormonism to her Episcopal roots I know a little something about faith changes and their impact on a marriage. I was wondering if you (or she) have written about her reasons for becoming Catholic. I'd be interested in knowing what inspired her to go that direction. I have a lot of respect for Catholics and their heritage, even if I don't totally understand the doctrine sometimes. I’ve followed this blog off an on for a number of years and through an ongoing crisis of faith that seems to actually be where I’m supposed to be. i.e. I guess I’m not called to the “comfort zone” of certainty I was expecting. Your ideas have meant a lot to me and have really helped me define what I think Christ was and is trying to tell us. Thanks for being there for me.

I know you have written kind things about Catholicism in the past, but I was surprised to read the item about your wife’s conversion. As a Mormon married to someone who has gone back from Mormonism to her Episcopal roots I know a little something about faith changes and their impact on a marriage.

I was wondering if you (or she) have written about her reasons for becoming Catholic. I’d be interested in knowing what inspired her to go that direction. I have a lot of respect for Catholics and their heritage, even if I don’t totally understand the doctrine sometimes.

]]> By: Donna'sEdward http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-1#comment-348840 Donna'sEdward Sat, 03 Jan 2009 20:05:45 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-348840 I want to say something intelligent...but all I can say is that I felt the tears begin to fall. You've answered and filled some of the voids 2008 lefted me with. Thankyou I want to say something intelligent…but all I can say is that I felt the tears begin to fall. You’ve answered and filled some of the voids 2008 lefted me with.

Thankyou

]]> By: Radagast http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-1#comment-348795 Radagast Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:32:58 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-348795 ... and then I read your response a few posts above... wow - that, for you, is selfless sacrifice, - and I can see you are struggling. Much prayers for you in this 2009. I have not experienced shunning, in fact a third of my students (of the ones that do attend Church on Sundays) go to non-denom or Baptists churches, so I cannot relate at all except that being cutoff (have experienced this in family) is a very lonely thing. (My attitude is that I would rather see them worship God somewhere than to be wholey engulfed in secularism). My prayers that you turn to each other and God, to pull you through. … and then I read your response a few posts above… wow – that, for you, is selfless sacrifice, – and I can see you are struggling. Much prayers for you in this 2009. I have not experienced shunning, in fact a third of my students (of the ones that do attend Church on Sundays) go to non-denom or Baptists churches, so I cannot relate at all except that being cutoff (have experienced this in family) is a very lonely thing. (My attitude is that I would rather see them worship God somewhere than to be wholey engulfed in secularism). My prayers that you turn to each other and God, to pull you through.

]]> By: Radagast http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-1#comment-348787 Radagast Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:19:07 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-348787 Michael, I've lurked around here a long time before ever posting. Your descriptions of inner self and your courage in sharing your struggles coupled with insight and writing with some meat makes this blog a refreshing place to visit. Sometimes events that we have no control over shake our world. Some from a Catholic point of view may think that your spouse’s movement towards Catholicism is no big deal. But for someone who has dedicated his life to a particular faith tradition, whose livelihood is within that faith tradition and a decision like this could change what the future may bring – not alone the spiritual intimacy between couples – it’s huge. For me to relate I think my spouse would have to announce she was becoming not Baptist, but Mormon. There are a lot of things I can admire about that group, but there theology is something I can’t accept. Going on retreat, especially to some of the places you named was probably the best decision –God was looking out for you. Whenever I need to turn lemons into lemonade, and I can’t seem to get past my own limitations and brokenness, time spent in quiet contemplation (for an extended period) seems to provide the same result for me as you described above. I am glad to hear that you are again moving forward on your spiritual journey and that your spouse is now freer to move on hers as well. Growth is tough and sometimes I don’t always see the direction God is taking me (which is why I expend way too much energy opposing what I should be accepting). Peace to you… Michael,

I’ve lurked around here a long time before ever posting. Your descriptions of inner self and your courage in sharing your struggles coupled with insight and writing with some meat makes this blog a refreshing place to visit.

Sometimes events that we have no control over shake our world. Some from a Catholic point of view may think that your spouse’s movement towards Catholicism is no big deal. But for someone who has dedicated his life to a particular faith tradition, whose livelihood is within that faith tradition and a decision like this could change what the future may bring – not alone the spiritual intimacy between couples – it’s huge. For me to relate I think my spouse would have to announce she was becoming not Baptist, but Mormon. There are a lot of things I can admire about that group, but there theology is something I can’t accept.

Going on retreat, especially to some of the places you named was probably the best decision –God was looking out for you. Whenever I need to turn lemons into lemonade, and I can’t seem to get past my own limitations and brokenness, time spent in quiet contemplation (for an extended period) seems to provide the same result for me as you described above.

I am glad to hear that you are again moving forward on your spiritual journey and that your spouse is now freer to move on hers as well. Growth is tough and sometimes I don’t always see the direction God is taking me (which is why I expend way too much energy opposing what I should be accepting). Peace to you…

]]> By: Junior http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-1#comment-348199 Junior Fri, 02 Jan 2009 18:20:03 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-348199 nowheretogo: Though I'm not Roman Catholic I think it's important to remember: The RCC is NOT a cult. They believe in the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They believe salvation is through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They believe in his Second Coming. They believe the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament, and so on. In other words, though we Protestants have very critical differences (seemingly insurmountable in many areas) with our Catholic brothers and sisters, they are part of the Body of Christ, the family of God. So, as indescribably painful and insane as things may be, don't walk out of your marriage. Christ is there somewhere, though for the time being, apparently hidden. Your husband hasn't denied Christ, though he has hurt you deeply. But perhaps the hurt isn't meant as a slap in your face, but his attempt to follow Christ, though this seems utterly foolish to you. Don't give up. You are not alone. Walk in the darkness, Christ is there though you don't see or feel him. Peace. nowheretogo:

Though I’m not Roman Catholic I think it’s important to remember:

The RCC is NOT a cult. They believe in the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They believe salvation is through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They believe in his Second Coming. They believe the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament, and so on. In other words, though we Protestants have very critical differences (seemingly insurmountable in many areas) with our Catholic brothers and sisters, they are part of the Body of Christ, the family of God.

So, as indescribably painful and insane as things may be, don’t walk out of your marriage. Christ is there somewhere, though for the time being, apparently hidden.

Your husband hasn’t denied Christ, though he has hurt you deeply. But perhaps the hurt isn’t meant as a slap in your face, but his attempt to follow Christ, though this seems utterly foolish to you.

Don’t give up. You are not alone. Walk in the darkness, Christ is there though you don’t see or feel him.

Peace.

]]> By: Patti Wall http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-1#comment-348188 Patti Wall Fri, 02 Jan 2009 17:59:34 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-348188 I have followed your blog for a couple of years now too...listen to your podcasts and have really enjoyed learning from you. I haven't always agreed with you, but I could relate to a lot of what you wrote about. I too have had a _______ year and actually they've been _______ for a few years now. I keep hoping it will get a wee bit better but so far that hasn't happened. The only thing that has happened is that God has given me morsels of grace, tidbits, pieces...that I've devoured like a bread crumb path - hoping for more, not satisfied with even those little bits. He has provided threw those small graces, showing me that He is intricately involved in my life, but He hasn't seen fit to reveal to me how long He intends to keep me in this what appears to be a torture chamber. I have been a believer for over 37 years and I would have to say that it's actually been more difficult being a believer now than in all the previous 36 years. I don't feel that I've grown all that much; I don't feel that I've been all that victorious and I feel like I've been a sad representation of someone who's been saved and redeemed by grace. I hope to get to see that light that is supposed to be at the end of some kind of tunnel I keep hearing about. I am so weary of the arm wrestling with God and I didn't even sign up for that contest. I've just been keeping my head above the water for fear of sinking. I do hope I can get to the point of where you are - where nothing has been totally resolved, but at least you're in a place where you can see God's hand, his leading, his working, his love and care for you and still keep that peace, that heart for Him. I'm still in the "I'm mad at you God" stage, pouting and whining... but that's just where I'm at right now. Thank you for being so transparent and open and I hope you know that you have been used of God to bless far more people than you will ever realize. a pilgrim who's still stranded in the storm.... I have followed your blog for a couple of years now too…listen to your podcasts and have really enjoyed learning from you. I haven’t always agreed with you, but I could relate to a lot of what you wrote about.

I too have had a _______ year and actually they’ve been _______ for a few years now. I keep hoping it will get a wee bit better but so far that hasn’t happened. The only thing that has happened is that God has given me morsels of grace, tidbits, pieces…that I’ve devoured like a bread crumb path – hoping for more, not satisfied with even those little bits. He has provided threw those small graces, showing me that He is intricately involved in my life, but He hasn’t seen fit to reveal to me how long He intends to keep me in this what appears to be a torture chamber. I have been a believer for over 37 years and I would have to say that it’s actually been more difficult being a believer now than in all the previous 36 years. I don’t feel that I’ve grown all that much; I don’t feel that I’ve been all that victorious and I feel like I’ve been a sad representation of someone who’s been saved and redeemed by grace. I hope to get to see that light that is supposed to be at the end of some kind of tunnel I keep hearing about. I am so weary of the arm wrestling with God and I didn’t even sign up for that contest. I’ve just been keeping my head above the water for fear of sinking. I do hope I can get to the point of where you are – where nothing has been totally resolved, but at least you’re in a place where you can see God’s hand, his leading, his working, his love and care for you and still keep that peace, that heart for Him. I’m still in the “I’m mad at you God” stage, pouting and whining… but that’s just where I’m at right now. Thank you for being so transparent and open and I hope you know that you have been used of God to bless far more people than you will ever realize.

a pilgrim who’s still stranded in the storm….

]]> By: Anna A http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-1#comment-348162 Anna A Fri, 02 Jan 2009 17:12:48 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-348162 To Nowhere, My prayers are with you. I cannot do or say anything except that I am your sister and I hurt for you. My heart goes out to all who are seeking, and hurting. Some because those who are supposed to be the most supportive are the least. Thank you, Michael, for being vulnerable and making a safe place for us to share our journeys. To Nowhere,

My prayers are with you. I cannot do or say anything except that I am your sister and I hurt for you.

My heart goes out to all who are seeking, and hurting. Some because those who are supposed to be the most supportive are the least.

Thank you, Michael, for being vulnerable and making a safe place for us to share our journeys.

]]> By: WebMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-1#comment-348093 WebMonk Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:18:23 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-348093 Sadly, you missed out on the wonderful blessings of 2008 which could have been yours if you only lived a more pure life. Obviously you have a root of bitterness in your life. Through meditation on the 2008th word of Leviticus, I have discerned that all your troubles come from the second word of your second sentence (because "2008" starts with 2) - "dance". You obviously have not rooted out that stronghold of Satan in your life. Do not fear though; God is full of mercy and has sent me to help. By sending me a tithe, you can have your BEST YEAR NOW! ------- Unfortunately, that was as bizarre as I could write, and I suspect there are groups who truly believe that. As you've said and taught again and again here, God isn't on our leash and He does continue to be there through our ranting and raving and doesn't hold it against us. If 2008 wasn't your Best Year Now, it was a good year. May 2009 not be your Best Year Now either, but may it be filled with God. I do pray that it won't be a year of pain either. In all, God will be there for you, even should the true "worst" come, whatever that may be. Sadly, you missed out on the wonderful blessings of 2008 which could have been yours if you only lived a more pure life. Obviously you have a root of bitterness in your life.

Through meditation on the 2008th word of Leviticus, I have discerned that all your troubles come from the second word of your second sentence (because “2008″ starts with 2) – “dance”.

You obviously have not rooted out that stronghold of Satan in your life. Do not fear though; God is full of mercy and has sent me to help. By sending me a tithe, you can have your BEST YEAR NOW!

——-

Unfortunately, that was as bizarre as I could write, and I suspect there are groups who truly believe that.

As you’ve said and taught again and again here, God isn’t on our leash and He does continue to be there through our ranting and raving and doesn’t hold it against us.

If 2008 wasn’t your Best Year Now, it was a good year. May 2009 not be your Best Year Now either, but may it be filled with God. I do pray that it won’t be a year of pain either. In all, God will be there for you, even should the true “worst” come, whatever that may be.

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/good-bye-to-2008/comment-page-1#comment-348048 iMonk Fri, 02 Jan 2009 13:44:07 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2681#comment-348048 nowheretogo: I know your road well. Many things you say very eloquently are quite familiar to me. I can tell you a couple of things. I sought professional help. Just adopting that posture was good for me, because I am quite arrogant. My sabbatical was essential. Not in solving things, but in giving us some space from each other and allowing me to breath a bit. I have made a lot of sacrifices so this marriage will survive. People are shunning us. Opportunities are gone. We're a freak show among Christian friends, but I am willing to make these and other sacrifices in order to stay with Denise. And I've had to embrace them. They are what God had for me. I didn't want these things, but they are here. I can't pretend. I have to find a way to make them work. For example, I cross myself now when Denise and I pray in the cafeteria. Everyone stares, but it is my way of meeting her more than halfway. I've studied and studied with voices that have helped me become more sympathetic and understanding towards the RCC. Perhaps most important, I simply have cried and emoted until there is nothing left. That dark place of response to all of this isn't infinite. It nearly killed the marriage and YES I have hated myself, but the emotion is basically gone. I'm exhausted. Now I'm trying to put something else in its place. If I leave my current ministry, I may become RCC for the sake of my marriage. I will NOT lose this marriage over this change. I understand that my wife couldn't take evangelicalism any more. I don't understand why this had to be the answer. Jesus has told me that this was the only way, and that he loves me, but I am the one who must choose to grow without mystical experiences, etc. I must see what has happened and choose necessary love. Prayed for you. ms nowheretogo:

I know your road well. Many things you say very eloquently are quite familiar to me.

I can tell you a couple of things. I sought professional help. Just adopting that posture was good for me, because I am quite arrogant.

My sabbatical was essential. Not in solving things, but in giving us some space from each other and allowing me to breath a bit.

I have made a lot of sacrifices so this marriage will survive. People are shunning us. Opportunities are gone. We’re a freak show among Christian friends, but I am willing to make these and other sacrifices in order to stay with Denise. And I’ve had to embrace them. They are what God had for me. I didn’t want these things, but they are here. I can’t pretend. I have to find a way to make them work. For example, I cross myself now when Denise and I pray in the cafeteria. Everyone stares, but it is my way of meeting her more than halfway.

I’ve studied and studied with voices that have helped me become more sympathetic and understanding towards the RCC.

Perhaps most important, I simply have cried and emoted until there is nothing left. That dark place of response to all of this isn’t infinite. It nearly killed the marriage and YES I have hated myself, but the emotion is basically gone. I’m exhausted. Now I’m trying to put something else in its place.

If I leave my current ministry, I may become RCC for the sake of my marriage. I will NOT lose this marriage over this change. I understand that my wife couldn’t take evangelicalism any more. I don’t understand why this had to be the answer. Jesus has told me that this was the only way, and that he loves me, but I am the one who must choose to grow without mystical experiences, etc. I must see what has happened and choose necessary love.

Prayed for you.

ms

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