Comments on: God’s Sovereignty in Lutheranism: An Interview With Josh Strodtbeck (1) http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1 ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:41:53 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Larry http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-133425 Larry Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:35:21 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-133425 “It’s also the source of the bewildering (to Calvinists) assertion by Lutherans that while election is purely of the grace of God in Christ, reprobation is purely of the obstinate will of man and against God’s desire that they be saved. This doesn’t make sense in terms of divine attributes or sovereignty, but it does if you hold that damnation is Law and election is Gospel.” In your September 11 interview you ended with the above. It is uncanny how you really have Calvinism nailed down. That’s been my experience both in the baptistic variety and PCA. I tell my wife and best friend (a reformed Baptist leaning like me but behind on infant baptism) “I’m a crypto Lutheran or at least rising one! How does that play out say in Romans 9? What I’ve always seen there and my Calvinist connections would call me crazy, was that the rebuke of Paul “who are you ole man…” is rebuking the religious doer or worker to heaven. The hypocrisy is this, God wills man to be saved, but the “doer”, the fallen man, says “Why does God blame us…who resists His will”. Paul then rebukes him. Why? Because the REAL reason the “doer”, fallen man, will not trust is that he WILLS to not trust such a free grace, he has to work for salvation per se. So, Paul rebukes with Law, “You say you no one can resist God to excuse your unbelief or distrust in Him, yet here you stand resisting the will of God to save you sans your works and by free grace…your hypocrisy is obvious.” Then Paul says God will harden whom He will harden. How? By the same free grace! That free grace for Christ’s sake that is the food of the believer “the naked truster” is the same cause of hardening to the “doer” or worker to God. The worker to God cannot STAND it and it is free grace that hardens him all the more, because he wants merit. So he 1. Resists the will of God in free grace trying to say he doesn’t and 2. Is hardened by the very thing he resists. Is that what bothered the elder son in the parable of the “prodigal son” over the younger son, he was thus hardened by the grace and resisting the father’s will? When I was an atheist/agnostic the thing that I hated about the Christian faith was what I thought was the absurdity of God being crucified for my sin. I had no problem what-so-ever with morality. In fact me then and even today, that is the charge against the church, its morals are no better than any other group/religion’s. Blessings, Larry KY “It’s also the source of the bewildering (to Calvinists) assertion by Lutherans that while election is purely of the grace of God in Christ, reprobation is purely of the obstinate will of man and against God’s desire that they be saved. This doesn’t make sense in terms of divine attributes or sovereignty, but it does if you hold that damnation is Law and election is Gospel.”
In your September 11 interview you ended with the above. It is uncanny how you really have Calvinism nailed down. That’s been my experience both in the baptistic variety and PCA. I tell my wife and best friend (a reformed Baptist leaning like me but behind on infant baptism) “I’m a crypto Lutheran or at least rising one!

How does that play out say in Romans 9? What I’ve always seen there and my Calvinist connections would call me crazy, was that the rebuke of Paul “who are you ole man…” is rebuking the religious doer or worker to heaven. The hypocrisy is this, God wills man to be saved, but the “doer”, the fallen man, says “Why does God blame us…who resists His will”. Paul then rebukes him. Why? Because the REAL reason the “doer”, fallen man, will not trust is that he WILLS to not trust such a free grace, he has to work for salvation per se. So, Paul rebukes with Law, “You say you no one can resist God to excuse your unbelief or distrust in Him, yet here you stand resisting the will of God to save you sans your works and by free grace…your hypocrisy is obvious.” Then Paul says God will harden whom He will harden. How? By the same free grace! That free grace for Christ’s sake that is the food of the believer “the naked truster” is the same cause of hardening to the “doer” or worker to God. The worker to God cannot STAND it and it is free grace that hardens him all the more, because he wants merit. So he 1. Resists the will of God in free grace trying to say he doesn’t and 2. Is hardened by the very thing he resists. Is that what bothered the elder son in the parable of the “prodigal son” over the younger son, he was thus hardened by the grace and resisting the father’s will?

When I was an atheist/agnostic the thing that I hated about the Christian faith was what I thought was the absurdity of God being crucified for my sin. I had no problem what-so-ever with morality. In fact me then and even today, that is the charge against the church, its morals are no better than any other group/religion’s.

Blessings,

Larry KY

]]> By: Ragamuffin http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-131043 Ragamuffin Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:12:18 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-131043 :^) Very funny. But just to be clear, by "vibrant" please don't take it to mean the kind of church I mentioned on my blog that I came to faith in. It's almost like everyone there seemed to think spirituality meant out-emoting the person next to you in the Sunday worship service. BTW, you're linked on my blog site now. Good stuff. Many thanks to you and Michael for this series! :^)

Very funny. But just to be clear, by “vibrant” please don’t take it to mean the kind of church I mentioned on my blog that I came to faith in. It’s almost like everyone there seemed to think spirituality meant out-emoting the person next to you in the Sunday worship service.

BTW, you’re linked on my blog site now. Good stuff. Many thanks to you and Michael for this series!

]]> By: Josh S http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-130986 Josh S Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:55:10 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-130986 I wouldn't ever use "vibrant" and "Lutheranism" in the same sentence (joking--my congregation is great). I wouldn’t ever use “vibrant” and “Lutheranism” in the same sentence (joking–my congregation is great).

]]> By: Ragamuffin http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-130757 Ragamuffin Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:38:20 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-130757 Reading this I feel like I wish I'd heard more about Lutheranism a long time ago. Then again, trying to find a vibrant, conservative Lutheran congregation in my area seems like a needle in a haystack expedition here in Southern Baptist Land. Reading this I feel like I wish I’d heard more about Lutheranism a long time ago. Then again, trying to find a vibrant, conservative Lutheran congregation in my area seems like a needle in a haystack expedition here in Southern Baptist Land.

]]> By: fr. Peter http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-130572 fr. Peter Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:33:54 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-130572 I like Luther's approach to predestination. I used to be a hard-core Piperite, but have moved in my theology. When asked what I think about election and predestination now I often say that my approach will tick off both staunch Calvinists and staunch Arminians. My answer is that predestination is a biblical doctrine. I also believe human responsibility and God's desire that all be saved are biblical doctrines. Both doctrines are part of the datum revelation, but Holy Scripture does not synthesize them. In my mind attempts to synthsize them are ultimately theories. There is nothing wrong with theological theories, but I will not profess them as of the esse of my faith. When I arrive on the streets of gold and if asked why I am there, I plan to reply -- chosen before the foundation of the world/trusted Christ in March of 1973/Died for in AD33. God can work out the details. I like Luther’s approach to predestination. I used to be a hard-core Piperite, but have moved in my theology. When asked what I think about election and predestination now I often say that my approach will tick off both staunch Calvinists and staunch Arminians. My answer is that predestination is a biblical doctrine. I also believe human responsibility and God’s desire that all be saved are biblical doctrines. Both doctrines are part of the datum revelation, but Holy Scripture does not synthesize them. In my mind attempts to synthsize them are ultimately theories. There is nothing wrong with theological theories, but I will not profess them as of the esse of my faith.

When I arrive on the streets of gold and if asked why I am there, I plan to reply — chosen before the foundation of the world/trusted Christ in March of 1973/Died for in AD33. God can work out the details.

]]> By: Eric http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-130569 Eric Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:01:39 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-130569 Kevin said "It seems that the authors of Evangelical systematic theologies I have read or skimmed aren’t even aware of the Lutheran answer to questions such as this." I agree. It is rare to hear or read about the Lutheran answers. Scott said "Wow! Terrific stuff! This is the thing that makes Lutheranism appealing to me - it is all about Christ." I also agree. The focus on Christ is what led me to the Lutheran faith. Kevin and Scott - you may find the following article helpful: http://www.confessionallutherans.org/papers/touchgev.html Brian - here are several articles on both Baptism and the Lord's Supper (from a Lutheran view) that may be helpful: Baptism: http://www.wittenbergtrail.com/page4/page14/Baptism.html Lord's Supper: http://www.wittenbergtrail.com/page4/page13/LordSupper.html In Christ, Eric Kevin said “It seems that the authors of Evangelical systematic theologies I have read or skimmed aren’t even aware of the Lutheran answer to questions such as this.”

I agree. It is rare to hear or read about the Lutheran answers.

Scott said “Wow! Terrific stuff! This is the thing that makes Lutheranism appealing to me – it is all about Christ.”

I also agree. The focus on Christ is what led me to the Lutheran faith.

Kevin and Scott – you may find the following article helpful:

http://www.confessionallutherans.org/papers/touchgev.html

Brian – here are several articles on both Baptism and the Lord’s Supper (from a Lutheran view) that may be helpful:

Baptism: http://www.wittenbergtrail.com/page4/page14/Baptism.html

Lord’s Supper: http://www.wittenbergtrail.com/page4/page13/LordSupper.html

In Christ,

Eric

]]> By: Brian http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-130562 Brian Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:53:38 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-130562 Almost thou persuadest me to become a Lutheran... Just can't come to grips with their views on baptism and communion. It's just the small things, really. Almost thou persuadest me to become a Lutheran…

Just can’t come to grips with their views on baptism and communion. It’s just the small things, really.

]]> By: Josh S http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-130561 Josh S Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:46:45 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-130561 Martin, I never said that all Calvinists logically derived their theologies from a single central dogma. That would be absurd, since no two individual theologians are exactly alike. However, what I said about the Westminster Standards is in fact true. Q12-14 of the Larger Catechism are clear enough. Creation and providence (which includes both covenants) are described in terms of the execution of the decrees of God. It's very sovereignty-driven. It's no coincidence that theologians shaped by the Westminster Standards constantly talk about God's commands, God's decrees, God's sovereignty, and so forth. Martin, I never said that all Calvinists logically derived their theologies from a single central dogma. That would be absurd, since no two individual theologians are exactly alike. However, what I said about the Westminster Standards is in fact true. Q12-14 of the Larger Catechism are clear enough. Creation and providence (which includes both covenants) are described in terms of the execution of the decrees of God. It’s very sovereignty-driven. It’s no coincidence that theologians shaped by the Westminster Standards constantly talk about God’s commands, God’s decrees, God’s sovereignty, and so forth.

]]> By: Patrick Kyle http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-130534 Patrick Kyle Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:45:30 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-130534 Michael, Thanks for posting this. Lutheran doctrine has for some reason, not gotten the hearing it deserves. I think many people will benefit from this series. Josh, Excellent discussion. Clarified some things that I have long suspected to be true. Thanks Michael,

Thanks for posting this. Lutheran doctrine has for some reason, not gotten the hearing it deserves. I think many people will benefit from this series.

Josh,

Excellent discussion. Clarified some things that I have long suspected to be true. Thanks

]]> By: Martin Downes http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1/comment-page-1#comment-130515 Martin Downes Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:12:38 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/gods-sovereignty-in-lutheranism-an-interview-with-josh-strodtbeck-1#comment-130515 Michael, I have no idea if you have come across Richard Muller's four volume Post Reformation Reformed Dogmatics (not a title to send the series up the book charts). One thing that he refutes, and this is true of the more recent scholarship in this area, is the idea that Calvinists logically derived their system from a central dogma like predestination. In light of that the opening paragraph just reads like a very bad caricature. Michael,

I have no idea if you have come across Richard Muller’s four volume Post Reformation Reformed Dogmatics (not a title to send the series up the book charts). One thing that he refutes, and this is true of the more recent scholarship in this area, is the idea that Calvinists logically derived their system from a central dogma like predestination.

In light of that the opening paragraph just reads like a very bad caricature.

]]>