God Isn’t Gamey: My New Hot Button
July 7, 2009 by iMonk
I’ve got a new hot button. I experienced it this week and I think it’s best to warn the general public that until I make some progress in sanctification, pushing this button could result in an ugly scene.
(Before I say this, I know there are a bunch of books on this subject and I’ve read some of them. I could just recommend a good book, but I need to get this off my chest.)
My new hot button is “You need to pray until you find God’s will.”
First of all, I believe in God, and I believe he has a will. I believe God sovereignly runs the universe pretty much like the Westminister/Second London Confessions say, though I have absolutely no idea what that means other than God is in control in a way I can’t understand and am not capable of understanding. (My brain is too small.) It’s an assertion, and as much as I know God only in Jesus, it’s a comfort.
Frankly, when Capon says that God runs the world through “Holy Luck,” like a guy with a card trick that’s amazing to you but no big deal to him, that works for me. Capon believes that things don’t look like there’s a plan, but that’s the beauty of the way God has chosen to run the universe. He’s there in plain sight where you can’t see him.
Secondly, I believe God’s will encompasses my life. In the same way, I don’t believe I am going to get much specific insight into that. It’s an assertion, and as much as it comes to me packaged as Jesus, it’s as I said, a comfort.
I know that when tragedy or sudden blessing strike, my belief in God’s sovereign control is a comfort. When my mom had a stroke and died in 14 hours, I was resting in God’s hands and praying the same for her. When I got a book deal, I believe it was God’s time. I’ll give him thanks.
But here’s the thing- I am really, really, really tired of being told to “find” God’s will.
I have no idea what most people mean when they say “find” and I don’t believe they do either.
Let’s run the perspective list:
1. What God declares and commands in scripture is, when rightly understood, his will. I’m fine with that. That’s why I preach the Bible and live my life by it. But I also know there is a lot of life that is a mystery to me, I don’t care how much Bible I stuff in my head.
I’m not impressed by people who demonstrate that they have a verse to turn any tragedy into an opportunity to say “God is doing this.” I prefer to see a tragedy as a tragedy. I’m not saying God is less in control. I’m not going atheist or blaming God, but he’s running the show and he allows tragedy. He doesn’t say, “Now show me you’ve trained yourself to say otherwise.” That’s sad. Maybe even sick.
My human instinct is to see terrible things as terrible. I don’t have any theological response to not trust those feelings and say “Oh, but God is really using this.” He is. He does. But my part is to start with, “This is terrible and people are hurting/suffering.”
2. What God communicates and allows through providence. I’m alive in Ky in 2009. I’m at a school. I have a family. I’m an American. I have an income. I have certain gifts and certain opportunities. God sent them. God allows them. Again, I’m not making a show of believing this. It’s how God unfolds life in time. His story. I’m a character. I don’t try to understand the author. (See Stranger Than Fiction to get that picture.)
3. What God communicates through those with authority over me and/or by means of trusted people in my world. Same as above.
4. What God communicates by his Spirit to me in mystical ways. Now we’re getting close to the issue. I know God does this, but I am really through playing the game of seeking for God to do it or expecting God to do it because some Christians think it’s obviously the way to go. I’ll pray. I’ll ask. I’ll ask others to pray. I’ll be still and listen. I’ll evaluate impressions. I’ll try to discern God’s voices.
But this is not a game I am going to play with God. I’m not cooperating with what amounts to saying “God is toying with us to see what we’ll do.” If God wants to say something to me, no game is necessary. And I am not required to demonstrate my desperation to know God’s will to know it. There may be places in my journey I need to be before God’s will unfolds, but God isn’t being gamey. He’s not playing hide and seek. He isn’t constantly dangling guidance in front of me like bait.
If this makes sense, I reject the idea that God requires some superior effort on my part to be mystical in order to communicate his will to me.
5. What God communicates by signs, miracles and answered prayers. You don’t want me decoding these things. Years ago, our house caught on fire, and a noise outside- totally unrelated- woke me up and got me in the hallway where I saw the fire. That noise saved our lives and our house. It’s a miraculous providence. I have no idea what it “means,” however, beyond what it is. If you hear me saying it meant we were supposed to leave or stay or paint the house pink, I’m just rattling on. No one has that information and I don’t want to go to a church that believes they have it.
I do not want anyone trying to get me on board with anything using miracles as a method. If God is that gamey, I don’t want to play. My dog can talk to me if necessary. I’ll listen.
Now the real deal comes down to this, and I’ll use a real life example. Let’s say I make enough money writing over the next 2-4 years that I could work part time, my wife could work part time, and we wouldn’t have to be where we are doing what we’re doing. So it could be stay or go.
God’s will? Stand by.
I don’t think he cares. And if he does, he can let me know without me acting like he’s an alien sending coded messages.
I can serve him either here or elsewhere. I can serve him anyplace. I can be faithful wherever. I’m free, within the boundaries of following Jesus, loving God, loving neighbor and using my gifts and talents, to serve God wherever I believe is the best place for me. There is a process, but I can trust myself as a reliable means of knowing God’s will. Not perfect, but not to be ignored in favor of “signs.”
I don’t need a sign, or a vision or a voice. I may or may not get a nudge. It doesn’t matter. I don’t think God is hiding his will. I don’t think I am supposed to ignore “normal” factors in determining where God wants me. I believe that if God has a place for me I don’t know about- like being Andrew Marin’s bodyguard- then Andrew will call and talk to me about it.
I can go to school. I can sell programs at the ball park. I can write. I can teach. I can preach or be an associate. I can counsel. I can do a lot of things. And I don’t believe I have to torment myself or anyone else about that.
When it seems right to me and my family, when I’m in a place to be responsible, obedient, submissive and faithful, I can love God and do as I please.
That’s the button. Thanks for listening.
The thing that helps me stay on the right path as far as God’s will is concerned is remembering that He is my Father, and that He cares for me as his child. As a father myself, I found that I experienced great joy in watching my children grow, fall, get up, and make their way through their world. When they did wrong, I used appropriate correction – appropriate to their age and stage of development – with less and less of it needed as they matured. They (my children) did not need my constant permission to enjoy life. They learned naturally as they grew what things I approved of and what things I did not. I frankly couldn’t care less if they chose volleyball over soccer or reading a book over playing with barbies – I just loved them because of who they were.
This is about the point where the analogy breaks down, but I think you see my point. God is a perfect Father, and I believe He has great joy in me loving Him whether I’m in Albuquerque or Bangor, a steelworker or an accountant.
I think a lot of which is sold as spiritual is pragmatism is disguise: just follow this formula and “Bam!”, you’ve found God’s will. When these “spiritual” tricks don’t work, then people abandon the spiritual completely, and Dawkins laughs all the way to the bank.
I am interested in the subject. I am actually studying on how to “hear” God speak to me. After swallowing a bad batch of pentecostalism years ago, I haven’t thought it was possible to personally hear God. Liturgy and structured prayer has been a safe place to hide from the subject; just follow the script and no one gets hurt. But even structured prayer is only meant to be an aid to lead us into personal communion with God; it was never meant to be a replacement. There are a lot of ways to interpret Hosea 4:6, but for me it goes along with Psalm 104:29. We need to hear God – not to tell us whether to have corn flakes or grits for breakfast, or even if we should take this job or that, marry this person or that, or stay or move. Maybe the problem is that we like Ahab only seek God’s voice in crisis – when we have to make a decision or get out of a jam. By then, it is too late.
Wow – it’s as though you have been reading my mind lately! Then again, reading your blog has probably in one way or another lead me to some of the same hot buttons as you have.
One of my favourite pastors – Charles Price, had a sermon recently about this very topic. He lamented how many people are paralyzed while asking “What is God’s will for my life”, instead of just making a minor revision to the quandary, and simply asking, “What is God’s will”. Nothing more, nothing less. When we strive to understand God’s will, we will know exactly what to do with our life. The sermon is entitled “Experiencing the Will of God”, and can be found at http://www.livingtruth.ca/media-resources.asp
I dont know if I agree with you completely on this or not. What Im certain of though is after playing out that cycle in my own life of “waiting on God and going to whatever comes available until I hear from Him,” over the last several years, I don’t think God cares. About the details of my life or any other person’s, certainly not my wife’s. As we struggle with one seemingly dire problem after another and seeing every prayer we offer up go unanswered or told “No” by way of unfolding events if God cared I think it would be apparent. And if I hear one more platitude about how God works in mysterious ways or He shuts one door to open another Im gonna write off the Church. I have yet to meet a person those ever helped cope with life.
Seems like the core issue is the imminence or transcendence of God. Always a fun debate with atheists and buddhits(sp?) My answer is simple-keep living life as best you can according to what the Bible teaches-If God is or isn’t being ‘gamey’ doesn’t really matter-He’s the boss and we don’t have the privilege of challenging Him on anything-see Job.
Good topic and good discussion. One that needs to happen in a lot of churches around the country. And not just Pentecostal. Baptist, Methodist, etc. Its everywhere. A few thoughts :
- The idea of God giving you personalized direction is exciting. It makes you feel special. It makes God feel close and personal. Its not sexy enough to just do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly. Its makes much more of a splash when you can enter the conversation with a “God told me”.
- By the same token, we feel sub-standard if we don’t “hear from God”. We’ve been taught that as we mature we will be able to hear God plainer and more often. That we’ll be able to filter out those other voices and discern that still, small one which is God’s. And if you don’t then you are not growing spiritually. This teaching, IMHO, is one of the worst lies we spread in the church today.
- People never use negative results to prove they heard from God. Its always positive. Think God is telling you to apply for a job? If you get it, God must have spoken. If not, you didn’t hear right. Fiancee breaks it off and you weren’t listening close enough. Investment yields great results and God made the stock page fall into your lap that morning. All this proves is that we have an over-inflated opinion of God’s desire for our comfort and we use that as the dowsing rod for having heard from God or not.
This is a hot-button topic for me as well but I think that’s enough for now. Thanks again for broaching the topic.
Lazarus,
I’ve been sitting here pondering your post. I don’t like platitudes either so I’ll try not to do that.
It sounds like you and your wife are going through some bad times. The circumstances are difficult and it doesn’t seems like God cares or answers your prayers. Or even hears your need.
I didn’t really understand the last paragraph about the imminance or transcendance. Of Course God is always as close as our closest breath. Even though with what you have been going through it doesn’t seem that way.
I would disagree with you on us not having the priviledge of challenging Him. I think lots of people in the Bible and most sincere Christians today challenge what seems to be unfair situations. And ask “why aren’t you helping me?” Many of Jesus’s parables are about people challeging and asking again and again. Even when He calls them dogs. “Even the dogs eat the scrapes that fall from the master’s table.” So I would say challenge away. God is big and He can take it.
Another way of looking at it is to compare my bad situation to that of Jesus’s. Everything I am going through, He has been there, even badder and bigger. He does understand.
You are right to say keep on living life the best you can. You may not believe me and that is ok but I know God does love you and cares about you.
I wouldn’t try to set any rules about how God does or doesn’t communicate His will to us. Being God and all, He’ll communicate with any particular person or group of people any darn way He wants. And I think it’s a mistake to expect Him to deal out such communications in an even and equitable distribution among all people. Like Queen Esther, God may have a very specific thing He wants a specific person to do at a very specific point in time — though, as in Esther’s case, He may not be very forthcoming with specific information about what to do. Or like Joseph, God’s will may become clear during a certain season of a person’s life, while not being so clear during previous or subsequent seasons of life. Or, as may be the case for most of us, God requires only that we live as good citizens of His kingdom, being all the more pleased with us if we don’t require a constant stream of signs and wonders to keep us motivated and between the ditches.
I do share your distaste for what amounts to circumstancial divination — basically trying to read events and circumstances like the ancient pagan priests used to discern the will of the gods by examining animal innards.
Overall, I suspect that if we genuinely strive to obey God’s will for our lives, we’ll end up doing so more often than not — even without Him telling us all the specifics about what His will is for every little thing.
I’ve always appreciated the wisdom of Ecclesiastes 9:10… “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.”
Keeps me from thinking so highly of myself that I would believe God has some grand specific “wonderful plan” for me!
I actually just read a book on this, “How then should we choose.” One of my professors (Dr. Huffman) edited it. Anyhow, my conclusion is this: for the most part, in most every-day kind of actions, simply take the principles of ethics from the Bible, do what’s right, and you should be fine. However, I cannot deny that God can (and does) order specific things from time to time — consider Paul trying to visit the country when the Holy Spirit prevented him. Was it wrong to go there? No, just not God’s plan. But this is only when God desires something more specific. So I might be a hybrid of two views on this one.
“I’m not impressed by people who demonstrate that they have a verse to turn any tragedy into an opportunity to say “God is doing this.” I prefer to see a tragedy as a tragedy. I’m not saying God is less in control. I’m not going atheist or blaming God, but he’s running the show and he allows tragedy. He doesn’t say, “Now show me you’ve trained yourself to say otherwise.” That’s sad. Maybe even sick.”
THANK YOU. Sometimes I wish folks would just tear their clothes or wear sackcloth and ashes and not say a word to those whom tragedy has struck.
When faced with the choice of which church to serve at, a pastor of ours put it this way:
Often in life God gives us choices, and he doesn’t really care which one we choose. It’s like a parent holding out three popsicles to his son. Would you like red, purple or orange? They’re all good, you just get to decide which flavor you’re in the mood for.
I think so much in life is like that, and whichever way you choose, God goes with you.
For a great song about this topic, check out David Wilcox’s “Hold It Up to the Light.” Words below:
It’s the choice of a lifetime – I’m almost sure
I will not live my life in between anymore
If I can’t be certain of all that’s in store
This far it feels so right
I will hold it up – hold it up to the light,
Hold it up to the light, hold it up to the light
The search for my future has brought me here
This is more than I’d hoped for, but sometimes I fear
That the choice I was made for will someday appear
And I’ll be too late for that flight
So hold it up – hold it up to the light,
Hold it up to the light, hold it up to the light
It’s too late – to be stopped at the crossroads
Each life here – each a possible way
But wait – and they all will be lost roads
Each road’s getting shorter the longer I stay
Now as soon as I’m moving – my choice is good
This way comes through right where I prayed that it would
If I keep my eyes open and look where I should
Somehow all of the signs are in sight
If I hold it up to the light
I said God, will you bless this decision?
I’m scared, Is my life at stake?
But I see if you gave me a vision
Would I never have reason to use my faith?
I was dead with deciding – afraid to choose
I was mourning the loss of the choices I’d lose
But there’s no choice at all if I don’t make my move
And trust that the timing is right
Yes and hold it up hold it up to the light
Hold it up to the light, hold it up to the light
RonP,
If memory serves me,I believe that God is not even mentioned in the book of Esther.
God is a God of silence. That doesn’t mean He can’t speak.He has verbalize in Bible stories. Personally, I don’t think that’s His usual way of communicating.
I’ve made decisions that were mistakes in my life, and my friends asked me afterwards, “Did you pray about it?” It was as though the bad outcome of my decision automatically signalled that I’d done something wrong, like not prayed about it.
Don’t get me started, Tim. Oh my.
Our choices reveal our hearts, not to God of course but to us. It is in the way we choose, the things we choose that our inner self is revealed…to ourselves.Even then we only know in retrospect.
If God guided us minutely, how would we ever know the inner truth of our hearts?
God is pursuing our hearts not our success.
Can God guide by special revelation? Of course.
Are we often left on our own to make wise choices? Yes.
Is God at work in the midst of our choices… absolutely.
I am sort of in love with the Popsicle analogy. Of course a lot of times, I get as much from my pastor’s “Children’s Message” as I get from the sermon (and that’s not his fault; he’s a gifted preacher; I just still struggle with digesting meat after all these years; baby mammal that I am, I love that milk).
I love this. Look at Paul. God’s will was for him to be imprisoned and executed. Ooh, ooh, and I have a story. It’s a hard one to tell because I don’t want to be slagging off on other people, but I’ll give it a try sans slag.
Okay, I’ve just deleted about 500 words. My slag is persistent The point of the story I can’t tell without sinning is that I was praying about my involvement at our church and how I wanted to quit certain positions, and assumed the guilt I was feeling about quitting was God telling me to stay. Then things got really bad — to the point where I could not stay and still love people at my church, and I quit. I’m starting to see that the guilt was empty guilt from my subconscious, and not God’s voice at all, and that the misery I’d been feeling in my position may have been God’s voice. Pain — God’s megaphone to a deaf world and all that. I was banging my head against a brick wall for months because I thought God wanted me to do it, even though it hurt. I now think the hurt was God telling me to stop banging my fool head.
Didn’t Calvin say something like, “Love Jesus and do whatever you want”? Two GREAT books on the subject: “Finding God’s Will: A Pagan Notion?” by Bruce Waltke, and “Guidance and the Voice of God” by Philip Jensen and Tony Payne, the people behind “Two Ways To Live.”
DSY
DSY,
If he did, he quoted Augustine, “Dilige et quod vis fac”, from his 7thhomily on the 1st Letter of St.John.
Good thoughts! In ten years of ministry, I’ve probably communicated the same ideas to people dozens of times, but it never seems to sink in. People follow my arguments. They nod and agree. Then the next week their back to praying in the same way. Maybe it’s our selfishness. We all like to think that God is going to single us out and give us some special personal revelation.
…this is a quote from TomCottar.org ..”We serve the Lord of Paradox. A God of ‘impossible possibilities’. Resist your enemies and love them. Ignore hypocritical spiritual leaders and obey them. Forget what’s in your past and be careful to remember. Flee from evil and stand firm against it. Don’t judge and judge rightly. There is a mystery to be embraced in the Scriptures because, in the process, we discover God in a different way. After all, it is God who chose to reveal himself this way. The ancient Hebrews called it “halakic reasoning”–holding both strands of a paradox in tension and balance, and knowing that, with God, both sides must be true”.
imonk have you ever blogged about the book 23 minutes in hell?
Martha, the point is I don’t believe that we’re to do things simply because we’re asked. Further, I think there are people (well-meaning ones) in leadership positions in various capacities who expect a “Sure, yes, I’ll help where I’m needed.” No, I don’t think a “It’s not God’s will for me,” is necessary.
But I do think we need to be excited about the things we’re doing. If not, why would we do them? (assuming we have a choice, of course)
Tim W: No.
Just reviewed the web page. Wouldn’t be something I’d be interested in.
peace
ms
Cindy, I was in that boat for a long time about a few areas I was serving in. I went on retreat for a few days and God confirmed in me that I could step down from those things because He never actually called me to step up INTO those things. I had the prior mentality of “see a need; fill the need,” which (if I understand correctly) is not really Biblical at all. Not sinful, just didn’t really have good solid precedent to it.
So, I stepped down. Music leading. Men’s Ministry. (the men’s ministry went without leadership after my resignation for over a year, actually) Elder board was more about my being on travel throughout the week and missing financial (elders serve on the governing board, too, at the church we were attending) and government meetings… I had the conviction of, “If you can’t be there, then step down”. Something God instilled in me.
Anyway, last August, we also left congregational church settings, attending 2 church services since then. It’s lonely to find out your friends (even Christian friends) were fair weather (conditional), but the freedom I am experiencing with my family is immense, as is His love for us.
One of the hardest things for me to learn as a Christian was that I have the right to say, “No. That really won’t work well for me.”
Interesting thought. When people have ill befallen to them and other people ask them, “Well, did you pray about it?” does anyone consider the fact that God might want us to LEARN something about ourselves or about Him while we fall flat on our butts?
Does anyone allow their kids to do stupid stuff in order to encourage the “lesson learned” scenario, or am I the only sadistic person here?
“Seeking God’s will”, in my humble opinion is a prosperous and Western pursuit. Being privileged recently to connect with many Christians from all over the world, I have found that very few are in a conundrum about what God’s will is. This was very refreshing to me, to witness people concerned with living in Christ, rather then trying to figure out how Christ wants them to live.
You know, since the Bible kinda lays that out for us already.
Also, “seeking God’s will” also seems to be, at times, a product of the consumer culture that we here in North America live in. As the gospel becomes water logged with self help jargon, “seeking God’s will” becomes a self improvement by-product. What better way to better yourself then seeking the ultimate will of your creator. Right?
Though I am Canadian, a good dose of Abe Lincoln seems like a great way to end my thoughts…
“I am satisfied that when the Almighty wants me to do, or not do any particular thing, he finds a way of letting me know it” – Abraham Lincoln
This is a very straight forward, common sense approach to a potentially mystical subject. There have been times when I have had great clarity and certainty as to what I should be doing and the direction I should be doing it in. Also, there are times when I feel like a ship in the middle of an ocean in dense fog with a broken compass. Either way God has a way of showing up with His opportunities and provisions. To obsess over the details of God’s will could be just the symptom of over-stated self-importance.
Free will requires reason, planning, priorities, weighing of outcomes, considering contingencies, etc. I think we can only make decisions if we believe we have the capacity to make a decision and live under the grace which forgives a bad decision. That’s saying a lot in an age which invented vocabulary like, “epic fail”. The fact is, if you are a decision maker, you will make mistakes, and some of them will be “epic”. I don’t think we are truly human without this risk. Paul Tillich touches on this in “Courage to Be”, that one is not truly alive if insulated from any and all risk. Tillich also made a distinction about the American view of risk and failure: rather than seeing failure fatalistically, the American spirit gets back up and looks for the next opportunity. As American culture has grown more liberal, I think is also has become more fatalistic since Tillich wrote those words. This makes sense, if you consider that liberalism is living life without the need of God’s help, which is by nature graceless and legalistic.
This is where the Gospel can reach our relativistic, amoral culture which doesn’t recognize sin but does understand unforgiveness. People live paralyzed lives of normality and blandness, in fear of standing out, falling down and being scorned, mocked, and ostracized for trying anything different…unable to even forgive themselves. I don’t think Christian culture rises above this morass, were good Christians prosper, and failure is evidence of sin in ones life or that one is double-predestined to perdition. The gospel message is not that there is a fool-proof way not to fail, but that if we fail, we have an advocate who intercedes on our behalf (I John 2:1).
I think the problem is that we don’t really believe in all of this grace stuff after all, or that we believe that the way to protect against cheapening grace is to keep it locked away for special occasions – avoiding any risk of actually needing it.
The rest of what I could say has already been said by iMonk here:
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-luther-quote-to-wake-up-the-sleepers
Carol,
Some people are restless, and that is just who they are. To me, that isn’t sinning (unless you have taken a vow of stability ).
I tend to be some what restless myself. (9 homes in 5 states in 19 years) But part of mine is I like keeping employed. GRIN
Some of the best missionaries must have been restless too. Like the Irish monks who set out in a boat to see where they would end up.
As far as pleasure being bad, that is just plain wrong. I’d check out the blog, “The Christian Monist”, you will find some interesting thoughts over there.
This post is both interesting and persuasive. I am inclined to agree with you that the evangelical phenomenon of incessantly praying for God’s will is problematic. But I wonder how John would respond to your statement, “I do not want anyone trying to get me on board with anything using miracles as a method.”
John 20:30,31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
I am disagreeing with you. Just putting it out there for conversation.
You inspired me to post something about it. Thanks! I just read a post here about someone wanting a review of 23 minutes in Hell. I had a pastor friend who says he was reading it. I just wondered why he would waste his time reading it. Not needed!
Regarding Becky’s comment on offered popsicles, I think it is possible to err to the other extreme and believe that God is somehow too busy or important to be interested in ANY of our life choices as if the “minutiae” of our petty human lives are of no concern to a high-minded deity such as Him.
However, Jesus made it crystal clear in the Sermon on the Mount that Father God IS aware of and sincerely interested in the day-to-day details and needs of our lives such as food, clothing, shelter, and the like. Furthermore, he later told his disciples that not even a sparrow falls to the ground with the Father knowing it and that the very hairs of their heads were numbered. That implies an extremely high level of personal interest in us on God’s part. When I hear people say, “God really doesn’t care about that,” I cannot help but suspect that what they are really saying is, “I myself think that is a trivial issue,” and are then projecting their own disinterest onto God.
I like to think of this way. Being an infinitely powerful being, God has an unlimited attention span and unlimited mental bandwidth. That being the case, each one of His finite children (or “sheep”) effectively has His undivided attention at all times, even when He seems silent or distant. God will never be too bored or too over-booked for me to come to Him in prayer with my concerns or just to talk about my mundane day. When the Bible says that we are now His children through faith, that is not intended as literary hyperbole.
Now, that is not to say that there is a real point to me “seeking God’s will” over whether I should wear my blue t-shirt or green t-shirt to clean the garage; such a choice is likely to have no moral dimension or consequences to it. However, I see nothing wrong with praying for godly wisdom when confronted with a major choice in life such as choosing a congregation, a new job, or a spouse. After all, wasn’t Solomon’s request for wisdom and good judgment heartily approved by God? People should just not expect such prayers to be answered by miraculous events or angelic encounters as God’s will is now predominately revealed through His Word, the Bible.
Wow Michael, after reading most of the comments here, I can only think your post has become a haven for Christian deists. I agree with you to a point, yet in my experience, the problem with finding God’s will is usually with me and not with God unwillingness to reveal it to me. God’s definitely not “gamey,” but I am often disobedient. Usually (but not always) of my frustration with not “knowing” God’s will can be traced back to my disobedience of one or more of the following Biblical principles:
1. Asking with perseverance (James 4:2, Luke 18:1)
2. Asking in faith and not with a heart inclined to unbelief (James 1:6)
3. Asking earnestly/fervently (James 5:17)
4. Asking without long gaps between prayer sessions (1 Thes. 5:17)
5. Asking while living a corresponding holy life (1Peter 3:12)
To be honest, some of your statements make me a bit uncomfortable. When you suggest, “What God communicates by his Spirit to me in mystical ways…I know God does this, but I am really… [not] expecting God to do it” – how is this not in contradiction to James 1:5, “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him”?
You (and some of the commenters) also stated, “I don’t think he cares.” That just seems so wrong to me. Take Christ as an example. Which day passed that He didn’t receive guidance from God? Scripture says, “Morning by morning he awakens; he awakens my ear to hear as those who are taught.” (Isa 50:4). Why can’t such daily guidance be our experience as well?
samb:
I appreciate your concern, but this grows out of deep pain in my own life. Literally wasting decades of my life with this issue. How many people literally BEG God to show his will to them and he’s silent? I realize it makes a great testimony to say you asked God a hundreds times and on 101 he came through, but this is not helpful to me in understanding God. It goes in the category of “God plays bizarre games with people, and the really spiritual ones hang in there till it makes sense.”
James 1:5 is absolutely true, but ut doesn’t specifiy things like fleeces and signs. I said in the post if God wants to speak to me he can. He can do it any way he chooses.
“He doesn’t care” means he doesn’t care if I serve him in Rwanda or I serve in Tanzania. Again, if he does, he can open one door and shut another. I don’t have to torment myself looking for a sign or solving some puzzle.
No one is affirming deism, i.e. that God has nothing to do with the world. I said he sovereignly rules the world. What I said was that I don’t need to approach God as if he’s holding out and playing games. I can be straightforward and assume that whatever happens- even if I make a mistake- God’s plan for me is still good.
ms
Michael, you said:
How many people literally BEG God to show his will to them and he’s silent?
I’m not sure God is ever silent. I don’t hear Him as often as I would like (I want more of God and less of me, to be honest, and it’s been a long road to get to this point) because I walk in my own woundedness and not often enough in His strength.
But, I think we’re not always tuning in to listen. It’s like your podcasts. You turn them out to listening wanderers in the post-evangelical wilderness (TM) week after week. You still speak. Whenever people feel led or that they have time or really have a need to hear an episode of the longest running internet soap opera (TM), whatever the reason, we’re drawn to you. Sometimes, not unlike moths to a lightbulb (lightbulbs don’t kill moths like gas flame does!).
So, we listen to you on our schedule and you speak on your schedule. It’s asynchronous, but then again, it’s not live. Blogging, as you know, is the same way.
So, I don’t believe God ever shuts up. And that’s not a bad thing. The disappointing part is that I want to hear from Him more.
I just don’t let NOT hearing from him debilitate me into a state of paralysis and fear.
And sometimes, I believe God really says, “You know what? You decide.” But it’s not like He doesn’t care. Kinda like when I took my daughter to get some fish. Just watching her pick out the ones she liked was a process of childlike wonder and beauty. And I think God sees us like that, too.
Both the Psalms and Job say that God is sometimes silent.
Michael Card has done excellent work on the idea of the silence of God, along with a great song by Andrew Peterson.
I don’t listen well, but when I am on the floor begging God for help I cannot be left with some idea that God is waiting till I jump through a hoop. It’s far more helpful to say “God has nothing to say about this specifically. I need to act on what he’s said that I do understand.”
I’ll have to check that out then, iMonk! Thanks. I don’t recall seeing it, but then again, my memory means nothing.
If I could deny stuff because I didn’t remember, I’d be in a lot less “trouble” than I tend to find myself getting into.
God is a God of silence. It doesn’t mean He can’t speak, even in English (imagine that). If you are hearing voices you need to have your head examined. If you think God is leading, nudging you to do something you need to check it out with a mature Christain or Spiritual Director. We are not on our own here. If we are we are listening to our own internal voice.
I am not sugesting there are not supernatural phenomina. I am sugesting they are rare, personal and a beautiful gift. They can be reflected on as a means of faith for an indivdual. A person believing they have received such a gift needs to be in Spiritual direction. Please remember our minds can be powerful in conviencing us God wants me to….
…and what would you say to someone who suspects their mind of such tom foolery…? :/
ekim,
I would say a person of the like may not be open to anyone saying anything to them. It can be quite powerful to say God told me to do this and that.
So it is up to us when we think God is urging us to do something to proceed with caution. I can only be responsible for myself.
If you are asking for my guidance I would say God doesn’t violate His own rules so if it goes against the Ten Commandments it isn’t God. Is it life giving? Is it something you want to do? Can you be honest and say, it’s something I want to do and I hope God want me to do it too. There is nothing wrong with that if if meets with the above.
Are you saying God wants you to do it to get your way? Be honest and look at the situation. Are you manipulating someone? Do you just have to? Or ‘they just have to’.
Just some ideas.
Derek, you quoted Michael when he said:
How many people literally BEG God to show his will to them and he’s silent?
and you responded “I’m not sure God is ever silent…
But, I think we’re not always tuning in to listen.”
Its hard to judge tone on the web but I hear you saying this slow and kind of thoughtful, and speaking with honesty from your own journey. So I’, assuming that it will come as a surprise to you how what you are saying might sound to others. Because the claim that its somehow always something that we are doing wrong which results in our missing it can sound like a major guilt trip, especially when it comes from a leader to people who are in immense pain, pain because they have begged God to know his His will, pain because they feel abandoned, feel that they alone in all the world do not get to hear from God.
One doesn’t need to construct a theology which denies that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God in order to have other explanations for silence; for Christians who believe that God is sovereign then it seems that He must be able to choose to be silent, or post charismatics like me there is the possibility of enemy action.
So insisting that an experience of silence from God is then guaranteed to create a double bind; because we know that we always miss perfection one way or another with God we can always find something that we didn’t do, or did do, or didn’t do right, and so we can always engage in endless contortions trying to get it right, and at the same time know no matter what we do does not work, indeed we have to acknowledge that what we (or most of us) do cannot by definition control God.
I don’t think thats a healthy place to be and that is what I hear Michael saying.
Because if our relationship with God is marked by an endless process of trying to hit the right formula with God, knowing all the time that we cannot then its not going to be life giving.
A former pastor use to lay this double bind on me, probably because he was under it himself. He’d quote “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble” and then he claim that if you were in silence then by some kind of evangelical syllogism you were therefore not experiencing grace and therefore must be one of the proud. One day I looked up those verses (its an NT quote of the OT) and came to understand that the word used for humble in both Old and New Testament refers the afflicted, the suffering, and who is more afflicted than those who seek to hear from God and are met with silence? Job insists that its not about what he was doing wrong, and his friends insist that it must be. Job didn’t buy and neither do I.
Windblown, I’m not at all speaking of the specifics of sin, but rather of business in our lives. Of thinking that something is too small for God to WANT to speak into.
It was thoughtful and certainly NOT meant to say, “if you don’t hear from God, you’re in sin.” I believe that, rightly or wrongly, I can hear God in my sin, too. After all, God speaks through the Holy Spirit, who convicts (not condemns) us of sin.
Not hearing from God isn’t, if I understand correctly – and in my own limited experience = the result of sin. It might be from not believing we GAN hear from him. I came to faith 13 years ago. Never believed I could hear from God and that people who claimed to hear from him were either a) crazy or b) headed for the nearest cult that would love bomb them enough to get them in the door.
I was wrong. I started hearing from Him back in 2007 (perhaps before that, but it was solidly 2007) while I was at a men’s retreat that actually included about 3 hours of silence during the weekend (4 total periods of silence) to go hear from God and how ot prepare for it.
forgive me, Windblown, and anyone else who took my tone to be one of condemnation and/or judgment.
Derek, thank you for your gracious reply.
I certainly didn’t meant to take you to task, but to point out how others might hear you.
I’ve also failed to be clear. I am not concerned solely with the idea that the only reason we don’t hear God is sin, I am also concerned about the idea that the only reason we don’t hear from God is because of something we are either doing or not doing.
Now I don’t hear you saying that. I hear you saying that one reason that we might not hear God is because we don’t expect to hear from Him, we consider our lives too trivial.
And I agree that can be a reason. Of course I think that there are other reasons too, and not all of them have to do with what we as individuals do or don’t do. This may not be an issue for some but for some of us we have been given the impression that its always about what we do or don’t do. And thats not just incorrect, its life destroying.
thank you for the conversation
Windblown, I’m enjoying the convo, too. But I think that hearing from God might (stress might) be due to something we’re doing or what we’re not doing. After all, if we don’t hear from a friend in a while, perhaps we’re too busy, distracted, not really paying attention.
I don’t think that our actions or whatever else we might be having going on will cause God to be silent with us. He did that once, when Jesus was on the cross crying out, “My God, why have you forsaken me?”. The point is he’ll never do that again. a) requiring atoning sacrifice and b) turn his back on his children.
For me, I don’t hear from Him often enough. But then again, I don’t go to Him to hear from Him often enough. I have about 4 hours in the car per week to commute to my 2nd office twice in that week. I constantly have my iPod on with some sermon or some post-Evangelical radio show or something else where I’m driving and listening to audible stuff. Good stuff, but audible “man” stuff. So, I’ve been challenged by a friend to spend at least 30 minutes of those drives (first once a week), in silence, to listen. To “be still and know that I am God.” as the Scriptures tell.
And it’s hard. Really hard. I have a short (10 minute) prayer routine I’ve been doing first, just to help center my heart on hearing. Sometimes it works. Sometimes, it doesn’t. The point is that I don’t let the enemy get into the time and take me out of seeking God. I do not let him condemn me for “failing”. Because I don’t see it as failing. And that is a hard point to get to. Just like when I was a kid, sometimes my friends could play outside with me. Sometimes they couldn’t. And sometimes I had chores to do which made me want to play with them more.
thanks Derek, I am also enjoying the conversation
I wish I had your confidence when you say that “I don’t think that our actions or whatever else we might be having going on will cause God to be silent with us”.
I am not sure of that.
But I do think that there can be other things going on which are due to what we do, or don’t do which can cause us to experience silence for a season. I am not talking about people who have never heard from God, I am talking about people who believe that God speaks to us personally, believe that they have heard from Him in the past, and have an experience where they don’t hear from Him, at least for a season.
Why is that? I don’t have a complete answer, still less a systematic theology. What I do know is that the standard Evangelical/post Evangelical answer (just try harder) does nothing to help people in that season, and can do a great deal of harm.
I’ve heard a number of pastors and leaders run through some routine responses, but end up with an “I just don’t know”…first time that I have encountered this. I guess its kind of like lying in the hospital bed hearing the doctors discussing how rare your disease is, but not what they can do about it.
Other traditions have something to say about this, in the Catholic contemplative tradition there is the description of the dark night of the soul by St John of the Cross. You know when A type evangelicals start reading the Dark Night of the Soul that their own action orientated tradition has failed them. So there is this contemplative idea that God allows us to go through a time of silence as part of a spiritual refining process. What do we protestants make of that? Is that God keeping silent? How do you know that that is what is going on? And what do we do? St John seems to say that some people are in that for the rest of their earthly existence.
There is another idea, that at least some charismatics might suggest, that sometimes we don’t hear well because there is intense spiritual warfare. Its usually coupled with the idea that there is some specific spiritual dynamic, not always directly related to us. I’ve lived in San Francisco and its harder to hear there, so the idea resonates.
But how does it feel to be pawn in the battle? How do we avoid the danger of thinking we can fix this with some technique, and so twist ourselves into knots trying to figure it out.
It may seem like these occurrences are rare, I know that many Christians that I have encountered are content to dismiss them as exceptions and stick to their formula’s. But these are God’s people we are talking about, each one uniquely valuable to the Kingdom. What is the Kingdom losing if the church cannot or will not help people experiencing this silence?
I feel like I’m intruding here with the conversation and trust the iMonk to email me to take it offline if he wishes. My email is roman dot hokie at gmail dot com.
But for now, if there’s anyone still in this comment thread, then may God be glorified by our search for truth on this and may we and anyone else be blessed as well.
I don’t know if I’m really all that confident, honestly. I’m learning to ask more questions than to assume whatever is told to me is true for what God has for me.
Much of my Evangelical (which I’m post- now) background has not at all been centered around hearing God speak to the individual, but rather seems more mystical in the fact that people just “know what to do” which may or may not be legitimately God speaking to them, but more of a “this is what I’m expected to do and how I’m expected to act”. So, I’m a bit new (2 years now) to hearing from God personally. I wish I had experienced it sooner, but I was one of those who said, “Yeah right!” when someone commented that “God told me…”
I would, personally, love someone in leadership to say, “Ya know… I just don’t know.” But add to it a, “Let’s walk this out together.” When iM says “wilderness”, sadly, there are times when it’s lonely except for me (black sheep), the wolves and the snakes.
I’ll admit, I have not read DKotS yet, but it’s been talked very highly about, so I’m adding it to my reading list.
My evangelical experience HAS been about “doing” rather than listening and enjoying the voice of God. The last congregation we were a part of started to introduce (some of the mission teams) “listening prayer” like it was something special. It IS special. But more like it had a special purpose and time. Folks were amazed at the stories told about the answers to that listening prayer, but nobody seemed to think it was available to all who believe. I do hope I am not coming across as dismissive… I was and am actually quite discouraged over the doubt. After all, Jesus said, “My sheep will hear my voice.” But we have forgotten…
I would not put myself in the charismatic bent (maybe I am… I don’t know… but there are a few charismatic traits that I’m still unfamiliar with, anyway), but I do acknowledge the reality of spiritual warfare in a very personal sense. I also do not “overplay” its role in my life because no weapon that’s fashioned against me will stand. And I already have the victory in Christ. But I need to remember regularly to bring the cross between me and others for grace and for the Kingdom of God.
I believe, ultimately, that tips, techniques, guidelines, formulae, and rules actually strip the relationship (any that we’re in, not just our relationships with God) of its intimacy and power. If God will give us 10 things to do and 10 things that he doesn’t want us to do… then we don’t need Him. In fact, I’m willing to bet there are some who, once given these two lists, won’t want Him. Relationships are disruptive. God might ask us to do something radical like start a new profession at the age of 36, take about a 50% pay cut, and go back to college to do it.
But, to seek like, we must die. Die to what we’re “sure” of. Die to what we “know”. And die to anything that doesn’t look like relationship with God. That’s a hard thing to do without fear.
Looking at Scripture, we have several examples (not exceptions
) of God speaking to people. Moses. Abram. Noah. Daniel. Jesus. And all of them had their lives turned upside down by listening to Him. By having a relationship with Him.
It’s like The Matrix (a perfect example of this). “This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.”
And yes, I cry whenever I see and hear Morpheus say that to Neo.
The one thing that Morpheus DOES with Neo that seems to be missing from a portion of evangelicalism today is discipleship. I’m not talking about encouraging someone to pray, have quiet times, find a Bible Study, and join an accountability group or prayer partner group. I’m talking about, “Walk with me and I’ll show you how to really walk with Jesus.”
I’m WAAAAAY off-topic. Too much caffeine today. Please forgive me.
And don’t EVEN get me started about “rhema words”…