<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Frank Viola&#8217;s New Book &#8220;Finding Organic Church&#8221;+ My article at Mod Ref + Theology Program</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:32:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Darin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-513097</link>
		<dc:creator>Darin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-513097</guid>
		<description>Presently I&#039;m a pastor in an Evangelical church.  I&#039;ve been a pastor for 18+ years and the church I&#039;m presently ministering in is 100+ years old.  Lately I&#039;ve been soaking in the flow of the following books: Search &amp; Rescue, Organic Leadership by Neil Cole, The Forgotten Ways by Alan Hirsch, Finding Organic Church, Pagan Christianity, Reimagining Church, From Eternity to Here by Frank Viola.

In Pagan Christianity, Barna &amp; Viola provide truckloads of footnotes and endnotes.  They encourage you to examine the evidence that they have put together.  I understand that it is very easy to misquote a reference or pull something out of context.  Still, the questions that are asked in the book cry out for legitimate soul and Bible searching.

As an individual who &quot;earns his check&quot; from the &quot;local church&quot; I&#039;ve had to do a lot of soul searching.  I&#039;m totally not sure where I will land on that, but as one who is a pastor and even elder in a church I wonder if we&#039;ve crafted something to fit ourselves more than to fit what God has for His ekklesia.  Part of my &quot;job requirement&quot; is to teach a class that I&#039;ve developed to help people get connected into our local church.  In it I point out in scripture that we all are ministers and royal priests.  It&#039;s amazing to see the lights go on in people&#039;s minds.  What&#039;s also amazing is that I have to teach a class and basically try to sell people on a Biblical truth like that.  Why is that?  Is it because of the almost 1700 year old tradition of paid clergy and the clergy/laity division that it has caused?  

In response to Paul&#039;s instruction in 1 Corinthians 14 I&#039;ve begun to invite a good number of people to join me in planning our worship gatherings  via a blog.  I&#039;m thinking of it as baby steps towards the &quot;So each one bring...&quot; ideas of Paul.  In response to my invitation I received a scathing email from a &quot;volunteer&quot; who instructed me that it was my &quot;job&quot; to do what I was inviting others to join me in doing.  If the flow of being a pastor/teacher is to EQUIP THE SAINTS TO DO THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY why are people so resistant to go any further than handing out bulletins, greeting, passing offering plates, singing, pushing a couple of computer buttons or doing baby sitting?

To me, Viola and others like him are asking hard legitimate questions of all of the saints including those of us who are pastors and elders.  I do believe that much of our history has added unnecessary girth to our midsections.  Largely due to the fact that we&#039;ve successfully raised a host of consumers who come to a 1.5 hour event to watch one or more paid professionals provide a service for them.  After successfully doing church the gathering of people leaves to go onto their regular secular lives until the next week&#039;s church service meanwhile critiquing the performance to their friends and family members.   Hmmmmmm.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Presently I&#8217;m a pastor in an Evangelical church.  I&#8217;ve been a pastor for 18+ years and the church I&#8217;m presently ministering in is 100+ years old.  Lately I&#8217;ve been soaking in the flow of the following books: Search &amp; Rescue, Organic Leadership by Neil Cole, The Forgotten Ways by Alan Hirsch, Finding Organic Church, Pagan Christianity, Reimagining Church, From Eternity to Here by Frank Viola.</p>
<p>In Pagan Christianity, Barna &amp; Viola provide truckloads of footnotes and endnotes.  They encourage you to examine the evidence that they have put together.  I understand that it is very easy to misquote a reference or pull something out of context.  Still, the questions that are asked in the book cry out for legitimate soul and Bible searching.</p>
<p>As an individual who &#8220;earns his check&#8221; from the &#8220;local church&#8221; I&#8217;ve had to do a lot of soul searching.  I&#8217;m totally not sure where I will land on that, but as one who is a pastor and even elder in a church I wonder if we&#8217;ve crafted something to fit ourselves more than to fit what God has for His ekklesia.  Part of my &#8220;job requirement&#8221; is to teach a class that I&#8217;ve developed to help people get connected into our local church.  In it I point out in scripture that we all are ministers and royal priests.  It&#8217;s amazing to see the lights go on in people&#8217;s minds.  What&#8217;s also amazing is that I have to teach a class and basically try to sell people on a Biblical truth like that.  Why is that?  Is it because of the almost 1700 year old tradition of paid clergy and the clergy/laity division that it has caused?  </p>
<p>In response to Paul&#8217;s instruction in <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Corinthians+14" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Corinthians 14">1 Corinthians 14</a> I&#8217;ve begun to invite a good number of people to join me in planning our worship gatherings  via a blog.  I&#8217;m thinking of it as baby steps towards the &#8220;So each one bring&#8230;&#8221; ideas of Paul.  In response to my invitation I received a scathing email from a &#8220;volunteer&#8221; who instructed me that it was my &#8220;job&#8221; to do what I was inviting others to join me in doing.  If the flow of being a pastor/teacher is to EQUIP THE SAINTS TO DO THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY why are people so resistant to go any further than handing out bulletins, greeting, passing offering plates, singing, pushing a couple of computer buttons or doing baby sitting?</p>
<p>To me, Viola and others like him are asking hard legitimate questions of all of the saints including those of us who are pastors and elders.  I do believe that much of our history has added unnecessary girth to our midsections.  Largely due to the fact that we&#8217;ve successfully raised a host of consumers who come to a 1.5 hour event to watch one or more paid professionals provide a service for them.  After successfully doing church the gathering of people leaves to go onto their regular secular lives until the next week&#8217;s church service meanwhile critiquing the performance to their friends and family members.   Hmmmmmm&#8230;..</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-511636</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 06:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-511636</guid>
		<description>OK. So can one of you payed pastors make a biblical case for taking a *yearly* salary with benefits. And perhaps some of you can explain your basis for paying a secretary to &#039;help&#039; you out.

-Peter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK. So can one of you payed pastors make a biblical case for taking a *yearly* salary with benefits. And perhaps some of you can explain your basis for paying a secretary to &#8216;help&#8217; you out.</p>
<p>-Peter</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-510672</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 18:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-510672</guid>
		<description>I think it is intreging that someone sees the &quot;Church&quot; as something organic. And why would it not be? The Church is changeing and growing in directions that do not set well with the &quot;traditional&quot; church. I see young adults craving for church and community. Jesus has the answer, and YES God is Organic. I love what God is doing. WOW.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is intreging that someone sees the &#8220;Church&#8221; as something organic. And why would it not be? The Church is changeing and growing in directions that do not set well with the &#8220;traditional&#8221; church. I see young adults craving for church and community. Jesus has the answer, and YES God is Organic. I love what God is doing. WOW&#8230;..</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Phillip</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-509931</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-509931</guid>
		<description>So the guy who wrote a whole book against the current structures in the church and that supposedly our current expression has pagan roots, has now published a book to structure &quot;organic churches.&quot; 

Interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the guy who wrote a whole book against the current structures in the church and that supposedly our current expression has pagan roots, has now published a book to structure &#8220;organic churches.&#8221; </p>
<p>Interesting.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Javi</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-509682</link>
		<dc:creator>Javi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 22:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-509682</guid>
		<description>Thank God for people like Frank Viola. People like Him are the Wycclifes, Huss &amp; Luthers of this century.  As someone who has been brought up as catholic but has known Jesus by the Word in the Protestant-evangelical church, I believe God is bringing voices that point us the next steps to partake of the restoration of the ecclesía as the fullness of Him that fills all in all. 

From Argentina, with love</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank God for people like Frank Viola. People like Him are the Wycclifes, Huss &amp; Luthers of this century.  As someone who has been brought up as catholic but has known Jesus by the Word in the Protestant-evangelical church, I believe God is bringing voices that point us the next steps to partake of the restoration of the ecclesía as the fullness of Him that fills all in all. </p>
<p>From Argentina, with love</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: joshuaschow</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-509679</link>
		<dc:creator>joshuaschow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 21:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-509679</guid>
		<description>In the constitution of Israel&#039;s covenantal politics, God intends for there to be a king over Israel (Deuteronomy 17-14-20).  1 Sam 8 does not condemn kingship, but rather the motive behind the kingship (e.g. be like other nations in trusting  a king to deliver the nation out of troubles). At least this is a viable interpretation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the constitution of Israel&#8217;s covenantal politics, God intends for there to be a king over Israel (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Deuteronomy+17-14-20" class="bibleref" title="ESV Deuteronomy 17-14-20">Deuteronomy 17-14-20</a>).  <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Sam+8" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Sam 8">1 Sam 8</a> does not condemn kingship, but rather the motive behind the kingship (e.g. be like other nations in trusting  a king to deliver the nation out of troubles). At least this is a viable interpretation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lydia</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-509663</link>
		<dc:creator>Lydia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 18:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-509663</guid>
		<description>I always keep in mind that those who scream the loudest against PC are those who make their living with some title in ministry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always keep in mind that those who scream the loudest against PC are those who make their living with some title in ministry.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-509631</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-509631</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And what did Lazarus “remember” about being dead, I wonder? We will have to ask him when we get to that other life.&lt;/i&gt;

By which time the point will be moot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And what did Lazarus “remember” about being dead, I wonder? We will have to ask him when we get to that other life.</i></p>
<p>By which time the point will be moot.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clay</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-509629</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-509629</guid>
		<description>Scott - if you didn&#039;t read the book, you really shouldn&#039;t call their criticism incidiary and stupid. Frank Viola and George Barna is neither of those. You can disagree on their points (which would require actually reading the book...what a thought), but your generalizations get you nowhere in convincing people like me that there isn&#039;t alot that needs reformed in our institutional church system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott &#8211; if you didn&#8217;t read the book, you really shouldn&#8217;t call their criticism incidiary and stupid. Frank Viola and George Barna is neither of those. You can disagree on their points (which would require actually reading the book&#8230;what a thought), but your generalizations get you nowhere in convincing people like me that there isn&#8217;t alot that needs reformed in our institutional church system.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott Pierce</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/frank-violas-new-book-finding-organic-church-my-article-at-mod-ref-theology-program/comment-page-1#comment-509627</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4344#comment-509627</guid>
		<description>Can I send your paragraph to certain members of my family?  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I send your paragraph to certain members of my family?  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
