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	<title>Comments on: Fr. Ernesto Obregon: An Orthodox View of the Issues In Sola Fide</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Fr. Ernesto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-322775</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Ernesto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 01:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2533#comment-322775</guid>
		<description>Actually, I do like N.T. Wright. However, I am not the first one to point out that C.S. Lewis views in his book mirror the Early Church Fathers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I do like N.T. Wright. However, I am not the first one to point out that C.S. Lewis views in his book mirror the Early Church Fathers.</p>
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		<title>By: Confused</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-322753</link>
		<dc:creator>Confused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Father Ernesto, have you read anything by N.T Wright, Anglican Bishop of Durham?  I may be misunderstanding, but what you expressed in your last comment sounds a lot like some things he&#039;s been saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Father Ernesto, have you read anything by N.T Wright, Anglican Bishop of Durham?  I may be misunderstanding, but what you expressed in your last comment sounds a lot like some things he&#8217;s been saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Ernesto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-321961</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Ernesto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2533#comment-321961</guid>
		<description>2 Corinthians 5:10-11 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God . . .&quot;

I wrote the note on Aslan for a reason. No, I was not just trying to delay. GRIN. I had commented, tongue in cheek, that if you gave me the definition, I could prove anything.

Now, not so tongue in cheek, that is what we say the West did strongly, particularly after Anselm and Aquinas. Salvation began to be defined more and more in juridical terms rather than in Christus Victor terms. As a result, justification became more and more a purely judical (or forensic) term and became much more important, as a term, than it had been in the Early Church Fathers. As a result, the whole place of faith and works changed in the West from what it had been in the Early Church, as did the interpretation of St. Paul&#039;s writings.

BTW, what I wrote above would take too long to write out, so I won&#039;t try. Suffice it to say that the Orthodox see the Roman Church and Protestants as arguing over the concept of works-righteousness, but on the basis of an atonement theology that is out of balance.

However, because both the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants actually agree on the definition of terms, it makes it very hard to explain the differences with the Orthodox because our definition of some of the terms has a different twist to it. As a result, justification, as a term, is not high on the radar of the Early Church Fathers.

As I have said, like Protestants, we are saved by grace through faith . . . not by works that no one should boast. There is no ongoing growing in justification as Trent said. But, we are saved into something. We are saved into a covenant that has covenant-conditions. And, while the covenant conditions are not works of the flesh, neither are the conditions an achieved perfection, they do involve works. As St. Paul said in the next verse of Ephesians, we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. And, in the quote with which I began, St. Paul actually agrees with St. James that a work-less faith means an eternally reward-less state.

My striving for holiness, my sanctification, my theosis, my being willing to take my medicine (works), is a covenant condition of what we have been baptized into, what we have been saved for, what Ephesians says we were pre-destined to do, works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=2+Corinthians+5%3A10-11" class="bibleref" title="ESV 2Corinthians 5:10-11">2 Corinthians 5:10-11</a> &#8211; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God . . .&#8221;</p>
<p>I wrote the note on Aslan for a reason. No, I was not just trying to delay. GRIN. I had commented, tongue in cheek, that if you gave me the definition, I could prove anything.</p>
<p>Now, not so tongue in cheek, that is what we say the West did strongly, particularly after Anselm and Aquinas. Salvation began to be defined more and more in juridical terms rather than in Christus Victor terms. As a result, justification became more and more a purely judical (or forensic) term and became much more important, as a term, than it had been in the Early Church Fathers. As a result, the whole place of faith and works changed in the West from what it had been in the Early Church, as did the interpretation of St. Paul&#8217;s writings.</p>
<p>BTW, what I wrote above would take too long to write out, so I won&#8217;t try. Suffice it to say that the Orthodox see the Roman Church and Protestants as arguing over the concept of works-righteousness, but on the basis of an atonement theology that is out of balance.</p>
<p>However, because both the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants actually agree on the definition of terms, it makes it very hard to explain the differences with the Orthodox because our definition of some of the terms has a different twist to it. As a result, justification, as a term, is not high on the radar of the Early Church Fathers.</p>
<p>As I have said, like Protestants, we are saved by grace through faith . . . not by works that no one should boast. There is no ongoing growing in justification as Trent said. But, we are saved into something. We are saved into a covenant that has covenant-conditions. And, while the covenant conditions are not works of the flesh, neither are the conditions an achieved perfection, they do involve works. As St. Paul said in the next verse of Ephesians, we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. And, in the quote with which I began, St. Paul actually agrees with St. James that a work-less faith means an eternally reward-less state.</p>
<p>My striving for holiness, my sanctification, my theosis, my being willing to take my medicine (works), is a covenant condition of what we have been baptized into, what we have been saved for, what Ephesians says we were pre-destined to do, works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Ernesto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-321490</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Ernesto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2533#comment-321490</guid>
		<description>OK, I have cross posted what is below on my blog, where there is a parallel discussion going on.

===

Warning: If you have not read C.S. Lewis’ book, The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe then this post will not make sense to you.

In the midst of all the discussion that has been going on over justification, salvation, sanctification, etc. on this blog and on other blogs on which I have posted, I found myself remembering one of my favorite books, C.S. Lewis’ The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. And, as I remembered it, it struck me that C.S. Lewis had given a very good fictional representation of the Eastern Orthodox emphases on some of the issues concerning salvation.

1. The Early Church Fathers had a very strong emphasis on the Incarnation and that emphasis was hooked to salvation. More than one Church Father insisted that it was not simply the fact that our Lord obeyed the Law that made his incarnation important, nor just the fact that he is God come to dwell among us. Rather, the very fact of the Incarnation means that human nature has been taken up and sanctified already in a very special way. And because that has happened, all creation is also on that path.

To us, the process of justification began with the Incarnation, even more than for the West (which also says the process began with the Incarnation, but with less emphasis than we give it). 1 Cor. 15:45 says, “So it is written: ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.” And Rom. 8:19-21 says, “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” Notice that as Aslan advanced into Narnia, the thawing reached out and reached out far ahead of his advance. His simple presence (incarnation) into Narnia was sufficient to begin the process of freedom from the old.

2. When we get to the death scene there is a set of interesting subtexts that are happening. First, of course Aslan substitutes for Edmund. No one is denying that. (In real life, Jesus substituted for all of us, but it is a fiction book, after all). However, note what the reason is that Aslan gives for the necessity of his death:

    “Have you forgotten the Deep Magic?” asked the Witch. “Let us say I have forgotten it,” answered Aslan gravely. “Tell us of this Deep Magic.” “Tell you?” said the Witch, her voice growing suddenly shriller. “Tell you what is written on that very Table of Stone which stands beside us? Tell you what is written in letters deep as a spear is long on the fire-stones on the Secret Hill? Tell you what is engraved on the scepter of the Emperor-beyond-theSea? You at least know the Magic which the Emperor put into Narnia at the very beginning. You know that every traitor belongs to me as my lawful prey and that for every treachery I have a right to a kill.” “Oh,” said Mr. Beaver. “So that’s how you came to imagine yourself a queen—because you were the Emperor’s hangman. I see.”

Note that the Emperor over the Sea is not pictured as demanding retribution. Rather, the creation is built as a moral universe, and the failure to follow through on the implications of the moral universe could damage the very fabric of it, if the retribution is not claimed. However, the retribution is not claimed by the Emperor over the Sea, but by the Witch. Mark 10:45 says, “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

It may interest you to know that St. Augustine, himself, as well as St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory the Great, and Peter Lombard, among many others held the view that the ransom was paid to Satan. It was not until St. Anselm (1033-1109) that a concerted attack is mounted by him to argue that the ransom was paid to God the Father. St. Thomas Aquinas, the heart of medieval scholastic Roman theology agreed with him. And, that view has become the dominant view in the West, but not in the East. We still agree with those Early Fathers.

3. The ransom was paid to the Witch by Aslan’s death, but the Witch does not realize that she has made a terrible mistake. 1 Cor. 2:7-8 say, “No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” That is the Deeper Magic which Scripture calls, “God’s secret wisdom.”

    “It means,” said Aslan, “that though the Witch knew the Deep Magic, there is a magic deeper still which she did not know. Her knowledge goes back only to the dawn of time. But if she could have looked a little further back, into the stillness and the darkness before Time dawned, she would have read there a different incantation. She would have known that when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor’s stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backward.”

4. Though salvation has substitution as a necessary sub-theme, the argument is that the main theme of salvation is not juridical atonement. Rather, the main theme of salvation, and therefore justification, is the victory of Christ over Satan and over death. We are justified by grace through faith, not as a simple juridical pronouncement but as the prizes of a great victory won by our God. Ephesians 4:7-8 says, “But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: ‘When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.’”

5. So, the Eastern Orthodox, by and large, do not tend to talk as much about faith vs works, because we do not see even Jesus himself as paying a legal price for our atonement, but rather as ransoming us and then winning the great victory over Satan, as the main theme.

6. This is why it is so tough for Eastern and Western believers to understand each other. Works are not related to atonement. Death, resurrection, victory are related to atonement.

===MORE TO COME===</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I have cross posted what is below on my blog, where there is a parallel discussion going on.</p>
<p>===</p>
<p>Warning: If you have not read C.S. Lewis’ book, The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe then this post will not make sense to you.</p>
<p>In the midst of all the discussion that has been going on over justification, salvation, sanctification, etc. on this blog and on other blogs on which I have posted, I found myself remembering one of my favorite books, C.S. Lewis’ The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. And, as I remembered it, it struck me that C.S. Lewis had given a very good fictional representation of the Eastern Orthodox emphases on some of the issues concerning salvation.</p>
<p>1. The Early Church Fathers had a very strong emphasis on the Incarnation and that emphasis was hooked to salvation. More than one Church Father insisted that it was not simply the fact that our Lord obeyed the Law that made his incarnation important, nor just the fact that he is God come to dwell among us. Rather, the very fact of the Incarnation means that human nature has been taken up and sanctified already in a very special way. And because that has happened, all creation is also on that path.</p>
<p>To us, the process of justification began with the Incarnation, even more than for the West (which also says the process began with the Incarnation, but with less emphasis than we give it). <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Cor.+15%3A45" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Cor 15:45">1 Cor. 15:45</a> says, “So it is written: ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.” And <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Rom.+8%3A19-21" class="bibleref" title="ESV Rom 8:19-21">Rom. 8:19-21</a> says, “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” Notice that as Aslan advanced into Narnia, the thawing reached out and reached out far ahead of his advance. His simple presence (incarnation) into Narnia was sufficient to begin the process of freedom from the old.</p>
<p>2. When we get to the death scene there is a set of interesting subtexts that are happening. First, of course Aslan substitutes for Edmund. No one is denying that. (In real life, Jesus substituted for all of us, but it is a fiction book, after all). However, note what the reason is that Aslan gives for the necessity of his death:</p>
<p>    “Have you forgotten the Deep Magic?” asked the Witch. “Let us say I have forgotten it,” answered Aslan gravely. “Tell us of this Deep Magic.” “Tell you?” said the Witch, her voice growing suddenly shriller. “Tell you what is written on that very Table of Stone which stands beside us? Tell you what is written in letters deep as a spear is long on the fire-stones on the Secret Hill? Tell you what is engraved on the scepter of the Emperor-beyond-theSea? You at least know the Magic which the Emperor put into Narnia at the very beginning. You know that every traitor belongs to me as my lawful prey and that for every treachery I have a right to a kill.” “Oh,” said Mr. Beaver. “So that’s how you came to imagine yourself a queen—because you were the Emperor’s hangman. I see.”</p>
<p>Note that the Emperor over the Sea is not pictured as demanding retribution. Rather, the creation is built as a moral universe, and the failure to follow through on the implications of the moral universe could damage the very fabric of it, if the retribution is not claimed. However, the retribution is not claimed by the Emperor over the Sea, but by the Witch. <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Mark+10%3A45" class="bibleref" title="ESV Mark 10:45">Mark 10:45</a> says, “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”</p>
<p>It may interest you to know that St. Augustine, himself, as well as St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory the Great, and Peter Lombard, among many others held the view that the ransom was paid to Satan. It was not until St. Anselm (1033-1109) that a concerted attack is mounted by him to argue that the ransom was paid to God the Father. St. Thomas Aquinas, the heart of medieval scholastic Roman theology agreed with him. And, that view has become the dominant view in the West, but not in the East. We still agree with those Early Fathers.</p>
<p>3. The ransom was paid to the Witch by Aslan’s death, but the Witch does not realize that she has made a terrible mistake. <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Cor.+2%3A7-8" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Cor 2:7-8">1 Cor. 2:7-8</a> say, “No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” That is the Deeper Magic which Scripture calls, “God’s secret wisdom.”</p>
<p>    “It means,” said Aslan, “that though the Witch knew the Deep Magic, there is a magic deeper still which she did not know. Her knowledge goes back only to the dawn of time. But if she could have looked a little further back, into the stillness and the darkness before Time dawned, she would have read there a different incantation. She would have known that when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor’s stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backward.”</p>
<p>4. Though salvation has substitution as a necessary sub-theme, the argument is that the main theme of salvation is not juridical atonement. Rather, the main theme of salvation, and therefore justification, is the victory of Christ over Satan and over death. We are justified by grace through faith, not as a simple juridical pronouncement but as the prizes of a great victory won by our God. <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Ephesians+4%3A7-8" class="bibleref" title="ESV Ephesians 4:7-8">Ephesians 4:7-8</a> says, “But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: ‘When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.’”</p>
<p>5. So, the Eastern Orthodox, by and large, do not tend to talk as much about faith vs works, because we do not see even Jesus himself as paying a legal price for our atonement, but rather as ransoming us and then winning the great victory over Satan, as the main theme.</p>
<p>6. This is why it is so tough for Eastern and Western believers to understand each other. Works are not related to atonement. Death, resurrection, victory are related to atonement.</p>
<p>===MORE TO COME===</p>
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		<title>By: Joe M</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-321127</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2533#comment-321127</guid>
		<description>If it&#039;s what my wife had, you will need four days until your stomach will tolerate justification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it&#8217;s what my wife had, you will need four days until your stomach will tolerate justification.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Cebalo</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-321053</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Cebalo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2533#comment-321053</guid>
		<description>Dear Fr.

My sincere best wishes and hopes that yo get over your flu (I&#039;ll be praying for you). And thanks again for an interesting discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Fr.</p>
<p>My sincere best wishes and hopes that yo get over your flu (I&#8217;ll be praying for you). And thanks again for an interesting discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Ernesto</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-321035</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Ernesto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2533#comment-321035</guid>
		<description>Well, I certainly hope I am not backtracking. GRIN. If I am wrong, I would hope that I would prefer to admit it rather than spin it. BTW, because I am a parish priest, I tend to only be able to post once or twice a day.

Let me try to phrase it a different way. The Orthodox see the West (Protestant and Catholic) as being mistaken in the same way. They are two sides of the same coin when it comes to faith and works. What do I mean?

One of our authors pointed out, &quot;A search of Greek patristic literature on the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae shows that, over a period of a couple of centuries that includes the theologically-rich fourth century, most Greek Fathers don’t talk much about dikaiosuvnh (&#039;justification&#039; or &#039;righteousness&#039;) except when exegeting a passage using that term.&quot; The two exceptions are St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Athanasius of Alexandria. And again, &quot;Eastern Christianity from its origins shows a singular lack of interest in discussing its soteriology in terms of justification.&quot; This is part of the reason why I am having trouble expressing myself clearly.

Frankly, the other reason is that I have the stomach flu. I have now been staring at the previous paragraph for over half an hour and my brain is not functioning. I ask for a little mercy and I will try to finish tomorrow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I certainly hope I am not backtracking. GRIN. If I am wrong, I would hope that I would prefer to admit it rather than spin it. BTW, because I am a parish priest, I tend to only be able to post once or twice a day.</p>
<p>Let me try to phrase it a different way. The Orthodox see the West (Protestant and Catholic) as being mistaken in the same way. They are two sides of the same coin when it comes to faith and works. What do I mean?</p>
<p>One of our authors pointed out, &#8220;A search of Greek patristic literature on the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae shows that, over a period of a couple of centuries that includes the theologically-rich fourth century, most Greek Fathers don’t talk much about dikaiosuvnh (&#8217;justification&#8217; or &#8216;righteousness&#8217;) except when exegeting a passage using that term.&#8221; The two exceptions are St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Athanasius of Alexandria. And again, &#8220;Eastern Christianity from its origins shows a singular lack of interest in discussing its soteriology in terms of justification.&#8221; This is part of the reason why I am having trouble expressing myself clearly.</p>
<p>Frankly, the other reason is that I have the stomach flu. I have now been staring at the previous paragraph for over half an hour and my brain is not functioning. I ask for a little mercy and I will try to finish tomorrow.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe M</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-320546</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2533#comment-320546</guid>
		<description>Fr. Ernesto, are you back tracking here?

&quot;As the catechism of St. Philaret points out, justification is related to faith not to works (look back above). Works have to do with sanctification ONLY and with forming your life towards Christ.&quot;

So then what do judgment scenes in scripture mean: Matthew 25:31-46; Matthew 7:21-23; John 5:29; and [Rev 20:12]the dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr. Ernesto, are you back tracking here?</p>
<p>&#8220;As the catechism of St. Philaret points out, justification is related to faith not to works (look back above). Works have to do with sanctification ONLY and with forming your life towards Christ.&#8221;</p>
<p>So then what do judgment scenes in scripture mean: <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Matthew+25%3A31-46" class="bibleref" title="ESV Matthew 25:31-46">Matthew 25:31-46</a>; <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Matthew+7%3A21-23" class="bibleref" title="ESV Matthew 7:21-23">Matthew 7:21-23</a>; <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=John+5%3A29" class="bibleref" title="ESV John 5:29">John 5:29</a>; and [<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Rev+20%3A12" class="bibleref" title="ESV Rev 20:12">Rev 20:12</a>]the dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls??</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-320484</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2533#comment-320484</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;justification is related to faith not to works&lt;/i&gt;

Fr. Ernesto,
What is the Orthodox view of this:

&quot;You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone&quot;

Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>justification is related to faith not to works</i></p>
<p>Fr. Ernesto,<br />
What is the Orthodox view of this:</p>
<p>&#8220;You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Caila Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/fr-ernesto-obregon-an-orthodox-view-of-the-issues-in-sola-fide/comment-page-1#comment-320417</link>
		<dc:creator>Caila Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2533#comment-320417</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think sola fida=&quot;drive through grace.&quot; I&#039;ve never thought that. Abraham is our great example of faith and works (interesting that he&#039;s an example from before Christ&#039;s redemptive work on the cross). Abraham believed God, offered up his son in obedience and it was attributed to him as righteousness. Did offering up his son give him righteousness? No. Believing God - solidly, utterly, staking everything on his belief - this earned Abraham his righteousness. I love what Willow wrote, in the face of a Savior I believe so utterly, &quot;Can one do other than obey?&quot;
In my own life I have seen this truth play out: when I humbly believe and surrender myself to obeying my Creator, my Savior, THEN are my works the most pure, the most self-less. But I believed first. Everything else is a life of love. Everything else is a gift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think sola fida=&#8221;drive through grace.&#8221; I&#8217;ve never thought that. Abraham is our great example of faith and works (interesting that he&#8217;s an example from before Christ&#8217;s redemptive work on the cross). Abraham believed God, offered up his son in obedience and it was attributed to him as righteousness. Did offering up his son give him righteousness? No. Believing God &#8211; solidly, utterly, staking everything on his belief &#8211; this earned Abraham his righteousness. I love what Willow wrote, in the face of a Savior I believe so utterly, &#8220;Can one do other than obey?&#8221;<br />
In my own life I have seen this truth play out: when I humbly believe and surrender myself to obeying my Creator, my Savior, THEN are my works the most pure, the most self-less. But I believed first. Everything else is a life of love. Everything else is a gift.</p>
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