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	<title>Comments on: Evangelism Won&#8217;t Cure It</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:41:53 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-2#comment-465521</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 02:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-465521</guid>
		<description>And thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-2#comment-465520</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 02:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-465520</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m learning, Monk, I&#039;m learning....discipleship!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m learning, Monk, I&#8217;m learning&#8230;.discipleship!</p>
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		<title>By: Em</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-2#comment-391603</link>
		<dc:creator>Em</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-391603</guid>
		<description>My dear departed husband was SBC and I tried going to church with him. It was sad that I could take only so many sermons (maybe 200 over the years) about coming to Jesus and becoming SBC without any sermons on how to live the Christian life. The Baptist preaching bored me to writing grocery lists inside the hymnbook, which distressed my honey something awful. So I stayed home while he went to church. Now I&#039;m on my own, I&#039;ve reverted to my childhood home, the Episcopal Church. There, I get a weekly message on how to be a good Christian/human being. My mind is showered with thoughts, ideas, &amp; insights, instead of rants about being saved, and no one tells me I&#039;ll go to Hell if I don&#039;t quit drinking, while the SBC smokers gather outside the front door sharing their smoke with all the congregation....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My dear departed husband was SBC and I tried going to church with him. It was sad that I could take only so many sermons (maybe 200 over the years) about coming to Jesus and becoming SBC without any sermons on how to live the Christian life. The Baptist preaching bored me to writing grocery lists inside the hymnbook, which distressed my honey something awful. So I stayed home while he went to church. Now I&#8217;m on my own, I&#8217;ve reverted to my childhood home, the Episcopal Church. There, I get a weekly message on how to be a good Christian/human being. My mind is showered with thoughts, ideas, &amp; insights, instead of rants about being saved, and no one tells me I&#8217;ll go to Hell if I don&#8217;t quit drinking, while the SBC smokers gather outside the front door sharing their smoke with all the congregation&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Gibson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-2#comment-314240</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Gibson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-314240</guid>
		<description>I know I&#039;m way behind, posting on this.  But I&#039;ve gotta ask, did you come visit our church just before you wrote this? We&#039;ve got issues and what did we do?  We started another evangelism program and gave it an olympic theme (Go for the Gold!).  If you want a gold star by your name, just invite someone to our church.  It&#039;s sad.

I too have to say that I love the SBC&#039;s cooperative program and I love the IMB&#039;s flexability.  I have many friends overseas and they have the freedom to discard the 1950&#039;s approach to reaching and teaching people in whatever culture they are in.  Maybe the IMB should send missionaries to us, they might teach us a thing or two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I&#8217;m way behind, posting on this.  But I&#8217;ve gotta ask, did you come visit our church just before you wrote this? We&#8217;ve got issues and what did we do?  We started another evangelism program and gave it an olympic theme (Go for the Gold!).  If you want a gold star by your name, just invite someone to our church.  It&#8217;s sad.</p>
<p>I too have to say that I love the SBC&#8217;s cooperative program and I love the IMB&#8217;s flexability.  I have many friends overseas and they have the freedom to discard the 1950&#8217;s approach to reaching and teaching people in whatever culture they are in.  Maybe the IMB should send missionaries to us, they might teach us a thing or two.</p>
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		<title>By: Ragamuffin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-2#comment-294331</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragamuffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-294331</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Michael,

It’s not just the SBC. All the guilt tripping and manipulation that goes on with the command to evangelize. I realized several years ago that I just simply wasn’t an evangelist. Simply living my life is a far better witness than trying to turn every conversaion “toward spiritual things.” Unbelievers sense our lack of genuineness when we try to steer conversations. They realize we really don’t care about them; we care about our own religious activity. One church I attended had regular prayer for the lost in prayer meetings. It was simply a recount of every conversation being steered toward spiritual things, and when the unbeliever turned the converstaion back to the topic, it was seen as Satan snatching up the seed that fell by the wayside.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/i&gt;

This is exactly how I feel.  You could be reading my mail.  I cannot effectively establish real, genuine relationships with people when I&#039;m constantly feeling pressure to look for any opening to insert spiritual nuggets into the conversation or steer it toward some evangelism question like &quot;What does it mean to be saved?&quot; or &quot;If you died today, do you know if you&#039;d go to Heaven?&quot;  My parents are neck deep in this sort of programmed evangelism talk and it drives me crazy.  How they think it comes off to the average nonbeliever and how it actually seems to them are totally different things, but they don&#039;t get it.  

I just try to be normal.  I try to live my life in a way that people can see a difference in how I conduct myself, how I treat people and so on.  And when subjects come up that naturally lend themselves toward touching on spiritual matters or a Christian outlook on the subject, I don&#039;t shy away from it.  But there&#039;s a fine line between not shying away and forcibly shoehorning a bunch of God Talk into any crevice you think you see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
<blockquote>Michael,</p>
<p>It’s not just the SBC. All the guilt tripping and manipulation that goes on with the command to evangelize. I realized several years ago that I just simply wasn’t an evangelist. Simply living my life is a far better witness than trying to turn every conversaion “toward spiritual things.” Unbelievers sense our lack of genuineness when we try to steer conversations. They realize we really don’t care about them; we care about our own religious activity. One church I attended had regular prayer for the lost in prayer meetings. It was simply a recount of every conversation being steered toward spiritual things, and when the unbeliever turned the converstaion back to the topic, it was seen as Satan snatching up the seed that fell by the wayside.</p></blockquote>
<p></i></p>
<p>This is exactly how I feel.  You could be reading my mail.  I cannot effectively establish real, genuine relationships with people when I&#8217;m constantly feeling pressure to look for any opening to insert spiritual nuggets into the conversation or steer it toward some evangelism question like &#8220;What does it mean to be saved?&#8221; or &#8220;If you died today, do you know if you&#8217;d go to Heaven?&#8221;  My parents are neck deep in this sort of programmed evangelism talk and it drives me crazy.  How they think it comes off to the average nonbeliever and how it actually seems to them are totally different things, but they don&#8217;t get it.  </p>
<p>I just try to be normal.  I try to live my life in a way that people can see a difference in how I conduct myself, how I treat people and so on.  And when subjects come up that naturally lend themselves toward touching on spiritual matters or a Christian outlook on the subject, I don&#8217;t shy away from it.  But there&#8217;s a fine line between not shying away and forcibly shoehorning a bunch of God Talk into any crevice you think you see.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-2#comment-293295</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-293295</guid>
		<description>Man, Michael . . . you know how to rant . . . and you rant the truth!! Church health (or lack thereof) is the real issue, not a lack of emphasis on Evangelism. Of course with SBCs (and you know I am one) it is not enough to just &quot;do&quot; evangelism, it has to be done in the right formula -- the way the &quot;real&quot; evangelists do it.  Fear, guilt, manipulation, etc.

I&#039;ve been reading iMonk for a long time . . . never have you posted a more insightful article, at least IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, Michael . . . you know how to rant . . . and you rant the truth!! Church health (or lack thereof) is the real issue, not a lack of emphasis on Evangelism. Of course with SBCs (and you know I am one) it is not enough to just &#8220;do&#8221; evangelism, it has to be done in the right formula &#8212; the way the &#8220;real&#8221; evangelists do it.  Fear, guilt, manipulation, etc.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been reading iMonk for a long time . . . never have you posted a more insightful article, at least IMHO.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Lake</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-2#comment-293256</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Lake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-293256</guid>
		<description>Michael,

I think I know what you mean.  As I wrote above, I do believe in contextualization when presenting the Gospel to different people, cultural groups, etc.  I *don&#039;t* believe in just continually hitting someone with the Law, if it is clear that that person and I are speaking different philosophical/cultural languages (starting from different presuppositions). 

In the end though, I may be more of a Van Tillian presuppositionalist than you are, when it comes to evangelism and apologetics.  I do believe that posing thoughtful questions to non-Christians is important (as a part of pre-evangelism).  I don&#039;t think, though, that we can&#039;t use propositional truth statements with postmoderns, simply because they believe (in the darkness of their unredeemed understanding) that language is just a game or a series of &quot;power plays.&quot;  The fact that they *use* language itself to make such absolute-sounding statements is very problematic for their position! Exploring these inconsistencies can be helpful in evangelism (and/or pre-evangelism).  To give up absolute truth statements with postmoderns, or other people, and say that we can *only* focus on community, existential meaning, beauty, etc. in evangelism is to concede too much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I think I know what you mean.  As I wrote above, I do believe in contextualization when presenting the Gospel to different people, cultural groups, etc.  I *don&#8217;t* believe in just continually hitting someone with the Law, if it is clear that that person and I are speaking different philosophical/cultural languages (starting from different presuppositions). </p>
<p>In the end though, I may be more of a Van Tillian presuppositionalist than you are, when it comes to evangelism and apologetics.  I do believe that posing thoughtful questions to non-Christians is important (as a part of pre-evangelism).  I don&#8217;t think, though, that we can&#8217;t use propositional truth statements with postmoderns, simply because they believe (in the darkness of their unredeemed understanding) that language is just a game or a series of &#8220;power plays.&#8221;  The fact that they *use* language itself to make such absolute-sounding statements is very problematic for their position! Exploring these inconsistencies can be helpful in evangelism (and/or pre-evangelism).  To give up absolute truth statements with postmoderns, or other people, and say that we can *only* focus on community, existential meaning, beauty, etc. in evangelism is to concede too much.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-1#comment-293145</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-293145</guid>
		<description>How come I (taken for awhile in a Southern Baptist church) NEVER had 1 Southern Baptist person witness to me in college in 4 years?

How come I&#039;ve only ran into 1 person witnessing to students at public universities in 13 years? (And he was a retired engineer showing students a DVD on evolution vs. Creationism)

How much evangelism SHOULD be on Sunday morning?  How much evangelism should be in the highways and byways throughout the week?

How did Jesus do it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How come I (taken for awhile in a Southern Baptist church) NEVER had 1 Southern Baptist person witness to me in college in 4 years?</p>
<p>How come I&#8217;ve only ran into 1 person witnessing to students at public universities in 13 years? (And he was a retired engineer showing students a DVD on evolution vs. Creationism)</p>
<p>How much evangelism SHOULD be on Sunday morning?  How much evangelism should be in the highways and byways throughout the week?</p>
<p>How did Jesus do it?</p>
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		<title>By: Rev.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-1#comment-292848</link>
		<dc:creator>Rev.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-292848</guid>
		<description>You hit the proverbial nail on the head.

An SBCer,
Rev.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You hit the proverbial nail on the head.</p>
<p>An SBCer,<br />
Rev.</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it/comment-page-1#comment-292730</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelism-wont-cure-it#comment-292730</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...part that was a little bothersome to me was when they said the reason that we are Christians is to bring others to Christ.&lt;/i&gt; -- Mike

This is what IMonk talked about with &quot;Wretched Urgency&quot;.  Never mind that it&#039;s basically an MLM pyramid scheme -- &quot;Amway without the soap&quot;; &quot;Sheep Saving More Sheep so that they can Save More Sheep.&quot;  Never mind that the Christian afterlife was originally Resurrection of the Body, not &quot;souls&quot; adrift in a Fluffy Cloud Heaven.

Otherwise, you can tunnel-vision into &quot;Wretched Urgency&quot; mode to the point you can&#039;t see the collateral damage.  Or even drift unknowingly into the part of the Inquisitor in Mark Twain&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur&#039;s Court&lt;/i&gt;, where &quot;If I rack him &#039;til he die, I shall have Saved his Soul.&quot;

I am NOT &quot;a soul&quot; for the &quot;saving&quot;.  I am NOT a potential notch on your Bible for brownie points at the Bema.  I am not a red shirt in your Wretched Urgency spiritual psychodrama.  I am ME, both &quot;body&quot; and &quot;soul&quot;, intertwined so tightly that only Death can split them into two incomplete parts.  (Why is Death considered &quot;The Last Enemy&quot;, instead of the welcome discarder of the body encumbering the Soul?  Could the Soul be INCOMPLETE without the body?  Without something physical to interface with a physical Cosmos?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8230;part that was a little bothersome to me was when they said the reason that we are Christians is to bring others to Christ.</i> &#8212; Mike</p>
<p>This is what IMonk talked about with &#8220;Wretched Urgency&#8221;.  Never mind that it&#8217;s basically an MLM pyramid scheme &#8212; &#8220;Amway without the soap&#8221;; &#8220;Sheep Saving More Sheep so that they can Save More Sheep.&#8221;  Never mind that the Christian afterlife was originally Resurrection of the Body, not &#8220;souls&#8221; adrift in a Fluffy Cloud Heaven.</p>
<p>Otherwise, you can tunnel-vision into &#8220;Wretched Urgency&#8221; mode to the point you can&#8217;t see the collateral damage.  Or even drift unknowingly into the part of the Inquisitor in Mark Twain&#8217;s <i>Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur&#8217;s Court</i>, where &#8220;If I rack him &#8217;til he die, I shall have Saved his Soul.&#8221;</p>
<p>I am NOT &#8220;a soul&#8221; for the &#8220;saving&#8221;.  I am NOT a potential notch on your Bible for brownie points at the Bema.  I am not a red shirt in your Wretched Urgency spiritual psychodrama.  I am ME, both &#8220;body&#8221; and &#8220;soul&#8221;, intertwined so tightly that only Death can split them into two incomplete parts.  (Why is Death considered &#8220;The Last Enemy&#8221;, instead of the welcome discarder of the body encumbering the Soul?  Could the Soul be INCOMPLETE without the body?  Without something physical to interface with a physical Cosmos?)</p>
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