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	<title>Comments on: Evangelical Worship Comes Full Circle (Irony Alert!)</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Margot Queen</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-315546</link>
		<dc:creator>Margot Queen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert#comment-315546</guid>
		<description>This discussion resonates with me as I just picked up my 14 year old son from a Catholic Youth Retreat (in our parish mandatory to be Confirmed a Roman Catholic.) We (my immediate and extended family) are of a modest worship tradition, no swaying and raising of arms and we feel very uncomfortable as our fellow congregationists increasingly worship in a more physical way.   My problem...the youth retreat seems to be designed assuming that every kid will be attracted to the rockin music...halilujas, swaying and shouted amens. Frankly my son was turned off by it all and after a long discussion with him I find out that the &quot;retreat&quot; involved 70&#039;s-esque sensitivity sessions combined with individual open confession of sin (blindfolds were involved!), fire and brimstone preaching by lay ministers and sleep deprivation (sounds a bit like brainwashing?)
My son is exhausted and disallusioned with us for sending him!
I guess it&#039;s time for us to move to a different church?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This discussion resonates with me as I just picked up my 14 year old son from a Catholic Youth Retreat (in our parish mandatory to be Confirmed a Roman Catholic.) We (my immediate and extended family) are of a modest worship tradition, no swaying and raising of arms and we feel very uncomfortable as our fellow congregationists increasingly worship in a more physical way.   My problem&#8230;the youth retreat seems to be designed assuming that every kid will be attracted to the rockin music&#8230;halilujas, swaying and shouted amens. Frankly my son was turned off by it all and after a long discussion with him I find out that the &#8220;retreat&#8221; involved 70&#8242;s-esque sensitivity sessions combined with individual open confession of sin (blindfolds were involved!), fire and brimstone preaching by lay ministers and sleep deprivation (sounds a bit like brainwashing?)<br />
My son is exhausted and disallusioned with us for sending him!<br />
I guess it&#8217;s time for us to move to a different church?</p>
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		<title>By: DRH</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-287653</link>
		<dc:creator>DRH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert#comment-287653</guid>
		<description>I suppose there is nothing quite like playing in bars for twenty or so years.  There is no basis for poking fun at the motivation that leads many folks to make a joyful noise.  Bless &#039;em.  Please bless us all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose there is nothing quite like playing in bars for twenty or so years.  There is no basis for poking fun at the motivation that leads many folks to make a joyful noise.  Bless &#8216;em.  Please bless us all.</p>
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		<title>By: aaron rao</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-263427</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron rao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert#comment-263427</guid>
		<description>An imperative part of Christian agency is raising the money needed to carry out the work of Godâ€™s kingdom. The articles below discuss biblical methods of fund raising, the trends that influence it and the history of Christian involvement.
_________________________________
aaron
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.widecircles.name&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wide Circles &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An imperative part of Christian agency is raising the money needed to carry out the work of Godâ€™s kingdom. The articles below discuss biblical methods of fund raising, the trends that influence it and the history of Christian involvement.<br />
_________________________________<br />
aaron<br />
<a href="http://www.widecircles.name" rel="nofollow">Wide Circles </a></p>
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		<title>By: max</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-171036</link>
		<dc:creator>max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert#comment-171036</guid>
		<description>As a progressive Buddhist I found this discussion really relevent to all faiths.

In my opinion there isn&#039;t a right way to worship. A well rounded faith explores the different means of worship just as there are the different aspects to God. 

Push yourself to try something different. 

Buddhists sit silently and don&#039;t move during our version of worship. The silence and concentration help us see and hear what we are looking for. In more animated forms of worship the focus and concentration developed in quite contemplation is lost. 

But when we play the flute, dance, or do more active forms of yoga or in fact do anything we have the dynamism of the spirit in is and there&#039;s no choice... you just gotta dance!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a progressive Buddhist I found this discussion really relevent to all faiths.</p>
<p>In my opinion there isn&#8217;t a right way to worship. A well rounded faith explores the different means of worship just as there are the different aspects to God. </p>
<p>Push yourself to try something different. </p>
<p>Buddhists sit silently and don&#8217;t move during our version of worship. The silence and concentration help us see and hear what we are looking for. In more animated forms of worship the focus and concentration developed in quite contemplation is lost. </p>
<p>But when we play the flute, dance, or do more active forms of yoga or in fact do anything we have the dynamism of the spirit in is and there&#8217;s no choice&#8230; you just gotta dance!</p>
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		<title>By: Sid</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-143369</link>
		<dc:creator>Sid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert#comment-143369</guid>
		<description>This is probably an honest assessment of &quot;worhip and praise&quot; in the church today.
There has been so much emphasis placed on the style of music being true worship, 
that the true worship has been left out of the picture. We have been literally SOLD 
a product from the music industry who is actually telling us what the ULTIMATE 
WORSHIP SONGS are for us to use in the church. It is an industry that does not care 
if the songs are written and recorded by Spirit filled Christioans with a God given 
anointing in the area of worhip. Can music be a part of our worhip? Absolutely yes. 
But if we can&#039;t worship without just the right song or music then we&#039;ve severely 
departed from what God calls the worship of Him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is probably an honest assessment of &#8220;worhip and praise&#8221; in the church today.<br />
There has been so much emphasis placed on the style of music being true worship,<br />
that the true worship has been left out of the picture. We have been literally SOLD<br />
a product from the music industry who is actually telling us what the ULTIMATE<br />
WORSHIP SONGS are for us to use in the church. It is an industry that does not care<br />
if the songs are written and recorded by Spirit filled Christioans with a God given<br />
anointing in the area of worhip. Can music be a part of our worhip? Absolutely yes.<br />
But if we can&#8217;t worship without just the right song or music then we&#8217;ve severely<br />
departed from what God calls the worship of Him.</p>
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		<title>By: Megan</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-142598</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert#comment-142598</guid>
		<description>As a former chaplain at a school that included both Christians and non-Christians, I witnessed kids participating in our worship services in lots of different ways.  Kids who were non-believers were still often interested in helping to lead the worship-singing or being in a play in chapel.  Kids (and adults!) are naturally curious about God at work in general, and especially in a worship scenario.  And God is always seeking each of us, believer and un-believer.  

Certainly, whatever is socially acceptable in a given group will dictate some of their (our) behavior.  I always tried to remember that I cannot know what God is doing at any moment - especially when worship is going on. How can we know the thoughts of the Holy Spirit? 

&quot;Genuine worshipers&quot; are a different story than un-believers in a chapel service.  I&#039;m pretty sure that genuine worship can happen anywhere genuine believers gather, no matter the format.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former chaplain at a school that included both Christians and non-Christians, I witnessed kids participating in our worship services in lots of different ways.  Kids who were non-believers were still often interested in helping to lead the worship-singing or being in a play in chapel.  Kids (and adults!) are naturally curious about God at work in general, and especially in a worship scenario.  And God is always seeking each of us, believer and un-believer.  </p>
<p>Certainly, whatever is socially acceptable in a given group will dictate some of their (our) behavior.  I always tried to remember that I cannot know what God is doing at any moment &#8211; especially when worship is going on. How can we know the thoughts of the Holy Spirit? </p>
<p>&#8220;Genuine worshipers&#8221; are a different story than un-believers in a chapel service.  I&#8217;m pretty sure that genuine worship can happen anywhere genuine believers gather, no matter the format.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Anton</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-142514</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert#comment-142514</guid>
		<description>Perhaps we should listen to Philip Schaff in his comments on both Luther and Calvin;

â€œThe reformation of doctrine led to a reconstruction of worship on the basis of Scripture and the guidance of such passages as, God is spirit,â€ and must be worshipped, in spirit and in truthâ€ (John 4:24), and, Let all things be done decently and in orderâ€ (1 Cor. 14:40).  Protestantism aims at a rational or spiritual service, as distinct from a mechanical service of mere forms.  It acts upon the heart through the intellect, rather than the senses, and through instruction, rather than ceremonies.  It brings the worshiper into direct communion with God in Christ, through the word of God and prayer, without the obstruction of human mediators.â€

â€œCalvin built his form of worship on the foundation of Zwingli and Farel, and the services already in use in the Swiss Reformed Churches.  Like his predecessors, he had no sympathy whatever with the Roman Catholic ceremonialism, which was overloaded with unscriptural traditions and superstitions.  We may add that he had no taste for the artistic, symbolical, and ornamental features in worship.  He (Calvin) rejected the mass, all the sacraments, except two, the saintsâ€™ days, nearly all church festivals, except Sunday, images, relics, processions, and the whole pomp and circumstance of a gaudy worship which appeals to the senses and imagination rather than the intellect and the conscience, and tends to distract the mind with the outward show instead of concentrating it upon the contemplation of the saving truth of the gospel.
He substituted in its place that simple and spiritual mode of worship which is well adapted for intelligent devotion, if it be animated by the quickening presence and power of the Spirit of God, but becomes jejune, barren, cold, and chilly if that power is waiting.  He made the sermon the central part of worship, and substituted instruction and edification in the vernacular for the reading of the mass in Latin.  He magnified the pulpit, as the throne of the preacher, above the altar of the sacrificing priest.  He opened the inexhaustible fountain of free prayer in public worship, with its endless possibilities of application to varying circumstances and wants; he restored to the Church, like Luther, the inestimable blessing of congregational singing, which is the true popular liturgy, and more effective than the reading of written forms of prayer.â€</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps we should listen to Philip Schaff in his comments on both Luther and Calvin;</p>
<p>â€œThe reformation of doctrine led to a reconstruction of worship on the basis of Scripture and the guidance of such passages as, God is spirit,â€ and must be worshipped, in spirit and in truthâ€ (John 4:24), and, Let all things be done decently and in orderâ€ (1 Cor. 14:40).  Protestantism aims at a rational or spiritual service, as distinct from a mechanical service of mere forms.  It acts upon the heart through the intellect, rather than the senses, and through instruction, rather than ceremonies.  It brings the worshiper into direct communion with God in Christ, through the word of God and prayer, without the obstruction of human mediators.â€</p>
<p>â€œCalvin built his form of worship on the foundation of Zwingli and Farel, and the services already in use in the Swiss Reformed Churches.  Like his predecessors, he had no sympathy whatever with the Roman Catholic ceremonialism, which was overloaded with unscriptural traditions and superstitions.  We may add that he had no taste for the artistic, symbolical, and ornamental features in worship.  He (Calvin) rejected the mass, all the sacraments, except two, the saintsâ€™ days, nearly all church festivals, except Sunday, images, relics, processions, and the whole pomp and circumstance of a gaudy worship which appeals to the senses and imagination rather than the intellect and the conscience, and tends to distract the mind with the outward show instead of concentrating it upon the contemplation of the saving truth of the gospel.<br />
He substituted in its place that simple and spiritual mode of worship which is well adapted for intelligent devotion, if it be animated by the quickening presence and power of the Spirit of God, but becomes jejune, barren, cold, and chilly if that power is waiting.  He made the sermon the central part of worship, and substituted instruction and edification in the vernacular for the reading of the mass in Latin.  He magnified the pulpit, as the throne of the preacher, above the altar of the sacrificing priest.  He opened the inexhaustible fountain of free prayer in public worship, with its endless possibilities of application to varying circumstances and wants; he restored to the Church, like Luther, the inestimable blessing of congregational singing, which is the true popular liturgy, and more effective than the reading of written forms of prayer.â€</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Anton</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-142436</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:17:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert#comment-142436</guid>
		<description>While I am not suggesting that all contemporary music is evil (much past music is equally evil), nor that all who sing questionable music are doing it for false purposes, I would suggest that we as believers be cautious in what we do and promote.  I have heard of Christian leaders stating â€œJesus Rocksâ€.  This to me is pure blasphemy.  Note how the term â€œrock and rollâ€ is defined in a secular dictionary.
â€œWebsterâ€™s New World Dictionaryâ€, Third edition, defines.;
â€œrock and roll...[first so used (1951) by Alled Freed, Cleveland disc jockey, taken from the song â€œMy Baby Rocks Me with a Steady Rollâ€: used of rock, roll, rock and roll, etc., with ref. to sexual intercourse, is traditional in blues] a form of popular music that evolved in the 1950â€™s from rhythm and blues, characterized by the use of electric guitars, a strong rhythm with an accent on the offbeat, and youth-oriented lyrics.â€
What many consider as â€œspontaneous choreographyâ€ as practiced in many so called Christian rock concerts and even worship and praise services is not really spontaneous at all, but rather the conditioned movements of the secular Rock concert whose roots lie in the motions of sexual intercourse transferred from a fornicatorâ€™s/adultererâ€™s bed to secular entertainment, and then to Christian worship.  Can â€œfour letter wordâ€ music and actions be used to describe our relationship with Jesus Christ?  Oddly, this style of music seems to be the one necessary to give our youth the â€œ spiritual highâ€ they demand and seek after in their daily lives and in their religious experience called praise and worship.  Something seems to be wrong.  So if you want to use contemporary Christian music, please do not call it Christian rock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I am not suggesting that all contemporary music is evil (much past music is equally evil), nor that all who sing questionable music are doing it for false purposes, I would suggest that we as believers be cautious in what we do and promote.  I have heard of Christian leaders stating â€œJesus Rocksâ€.  This to me is pure blasphemy.  Note how the term â€œrock and rollâ€ is defined in a secular dictionary.<br />
â€œWebsterâ€™s New World Dictionaryâ€, Third edition, defines.;<br />
â€œrock and roll&#8230;[first so used (1951) by Alled Freed, Cleveland disc jockey, taken from the song â€œMy Baby Rocks Me with a Steady Rollâ€: used of rock, roll, rock and roll, etc., with ref. to sexual intercourse, is traditional in blues] a form of popular music that evolved in the 1950â€™s from rhythm and blues, characterized by the use of electric guitars, a strong rhythm with an accent on the offbeat, and youth-oriented lyrics.â€<br />
What many consider as â€œspontaneous choreographyâ€ as practiced in many so called Christian rock concerts and even worship and praise services is not really spontaneous at all, but rather the conditioned movements of the secular Rock concert whose roots lie in the motions of sexual intercourse transferred from a fornicatorâ€™s/adultererâ€™s bed to secular entertainment, and then to Christian worship.  Can â€œfour letter wordâ€ music and actions be used to describe our relationship with Jesus Christ?  Oddly, this style of music seems to be the one necessary to give our youth the â€œ spiritual highâ€ they demand and seek after in their daily lives and in their religious experience called praise and worship.  Something seems to be wrong.  So if you want to use contemporary Christian music, please do not call it Christian rock.</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-142408</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 03:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert#comment-142408</guid>
		<description>&quot;Iâ€™ve never heard of theologians arguing over Davidâ€™s worship attire before, thatâ€™s a new one.&quot;

Does this mean then that the following applies to me, since I brought out &quot;things new?&quot;...

Therefore every scribe who is instructed to the kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a householder, who brings out things new and old out of his treasure.
(Mat 13:52)

If so, thanks. :-)

&quot;Music does influence, the hippie revolution was all about music as the medium for a message.&quot;


Let me ask you - about Francis of Assisi. Did he have anything to do with the &quot;hippie music&quot; of his time, or rather something &quot;more acceptable&quot; to God?

hint..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour

and...

&quot;Inspired by his youth as a troubadour love poet who searched for an invisible, unattainable â€œlady love,â€ Francis fixed his affections on â€œLady Poverty,â€ and tried his best to die of love for herâ€”since she seemed to him the closest companion of Christ.&quot; http://www.takimag.com/site/article/flogging_brother_ass


Francis took up the music of the countercultural Troubadours and transformed it from being songs in search of a girl into songs in search of &quot;lady poverty.&quot;

A modern example might be the late Keith Green, a man whose &quot;hippy&quot; sensibilities did not prevent him from also writing lyrics that make Steve Camp seem emergent.

And if you are going to knock these two (Francis and Keith), well then goodnight!

Blessings,
Joe</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Iâ€™ve never heard of theologians arguing over Davidâ€™s worship attire before, thatâ€™s a new one.&#8221;</p>
<p>Does this mean then that the following applies to me, since I brought out &#8220;things new?&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>Therefore every scribe who is instructed to the kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a householder, who brings out things new and old out of his treasure.<br />
(Mat 13:52)</p>
<p>If so, thanks. <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>&#8220;Music does influence, the hippie revolution was all about music as the medium for a message.&#8221;</p>
<p>Let me ask you &#8211; about Francis of Assisi. Did he have anything to do with the &#8220;hippie music&#8221; of his time, or rather something &#8220;more acceptable&#8221; to God?</p>
<p>hint..</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour</a></p>
<p>and&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Inspired by his youth as a troubadour love poet who searched for an invisible, unattainable â€œlady love,â€ Francis fixed his affections on â€œLady Poverty,â€ and tried his best to die of love for herâ€”since she seemed to him the closest companion of Christ.&#8221; <a href="http://www.takimag.com/site/article/flogging_brother_ass" rel="nofollow">http://www.takimag.com/site/article/flogging_brother_ass</a></p>
<p>Francis took up the music of the countercultural Troubadours and transformed it from being songs in search of a girl into songs in search of &#8220;lady poverty.&#8221;</p>
<p>A modern example might be the late Keith Green, a man whose &#8220;hippy&#8221; sensibilities did not prevent him from also writing lyrics that make Steve Camp seem emergent.</p>
<p>And if you are going to knock these two (Francis and Keith), well then goodnight!</p>
<p>Blessings,<br />
Joe</p>
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		<title>By: anne</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/evangelical-worship-comes-full-circle-irony-alert/comment-page-1#comment-142394</link>
		<dc:creator>anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 03:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Does silence have any place in contemporary evangelical worship?  I am truly curious about this (cradle Catholic).  Very interesting conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does silence have any place in contemporary evangelical worship?  I am truly curious about this (cradle Catholic).  Very interesting conversation.</p>
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