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	<title>Comments on: Election Day 2008 Whine and Sheesh Party</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Caila Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-3#comment-313025</link>
		<dc:creator>Caila Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-313025</guid>
		<description>I just can&#039;t wait for it to be over so I can stop chewing my mental fingernails. I know who I support for President, but I&#039;m already praying &quot;God help us all&quot; either way. Oh well. Come Wednesday, Christians should continue doing what our brothers and sisters are doing all over the world. Praying, hoping in Jesus, believing, and living our lives the way we know Christ wants us to--no matter the culture we live in. We enjoy a lot of freedoms many Christians do not, simply by living in this country. In order to avoid getting depressed tomorrow, I shall just remember that point. And look to Jesus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just can&#8217;t wait for it to be over so I can stop chewing my mental fingernails. I know who I support for President, but I&#8217;m already praying &#8220;God help us all&#8221; either way. Oh well. Come Wednesday, Christians should continue doing what our brothers and sisters are doing all over the world. Praying, hoping in Jesus, believing, and living our lives the way we know Christ wants us to&#8211;no matter the culture we live in. We enjoy a lot of freedoms many Christians do not, simply by living in this country. In order to avoid getting depressed tomorrow, I shall just remember that point. And look to Jesus.</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-3#comment-313017</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 21:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-313017</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I’m with you. I don’t know if all the Obamaration says more about him or more about us, but it gives me the willies either way. Even if I were going to vote for him, it would really bother me.&lt;/i&gt;

A LiveJournal headline a couple weeks ago said it all:

&quot;Senator Obama:  Your fanboys scare me.&quot;

&lt;i&gt;By the way, I predict that this thread will not die until 2012.&lt;/i&gt;

Or until it&#039;s banned under some Federal Hate Speech Act of 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I’m with you. I don’t know if all the Obamaration says more about him or more about us, but it gives me the willies either way. Even if I were going to vote for him, it would really bother me.</i></p>
<p>A LiveJournal headline a couple weeks ago said it all:</p>
<p>&#8220;Senator Obama:  Your fanboys scare me.&#8221;</p>
<p><i>By the way, I predict that this thread will not die until 2012.</i></p>
<p>Or until it&#8217;s banned under some Federal Hate Speech Act of 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Sacamento</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-3#comment-313004</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Sacamento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-313004</guid>
		<description>One more thing, if you don&#039;t mind.

Probably the most important statement in Michael&#039;s post, and the one we discussed least was his last sentence:

&lt;i&gt;I’ll make a choice, but I’ll be walking home praying for God to have mercy on the United States.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, not alot to discuss.  Just, Amen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing, if you don&#8217;t mind.</p>
<p>Probably the most important statement in Michael&#8217;s post, and the one we discussed least was his last sentence:</p>
<p><i>I’ll make a choice, but I’ll be walking home praying for God to have mercy on the United States.</i></p>
<p>Actually, not alot to discuss.  Just, Amen.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Sacamento</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-3#comment-313002</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Sacamento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-313002</guid>
		<description>Michael Dee Smith wrote,

&lt;i&gt;It is only that I am discomforted by the possibility of our willingness to cede to him something that looks too much like adoration and a mindless desire to be led to where we know not. A further echo of the German spectacles of the 1930’s is that Obama also thinks in grand terms, and has shown a brilliant sense for staging grand spectacles of his own.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m with you.  I don&#039;t know if all the Obamaration says more about him or more about us, but it gives me the willies either way.  Even if I were going to vote for him, it would really bother me.

By the way, I predict that this thread will not die until 2012.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Dee Smith wrote,</p>
<p><i>It is only that I am discomforted by the possibility of our willingness to cede to him something that looks too much like adoration and a mindless desire to be led to where we know not. A further echo of the German spectacles of the 1930’s is that Obama also thinks in grand terms, and has shown a brilliant sense for staging grand spectacles of his own.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m with you.  I don&#8217;t know if all the Obamaration says more about him or more about us, but it gives me the willies either way.  Even if I were going to vote for him, it would really bother me.</p>
<p>By the way, I predict that this thread will not die until 2012.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Dee Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-3#comment-312984</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Dee Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-312984</guid>
		<description>More than once I have vigorously scolded fellow Christians for making ignorant and uncompassionate pronouncements against one or the other (mostly one and not the other) of our presidential candidates in this overly drawn out political season. 

My own political views have gone through dramatic changes over the last few years. I came to feel evangelicals had been suckered by the Republicans from the 80’s onward, and that we had lost our witness as a result of our naiveté and idolatry. Desiring to be rid of the power I as a Christian had ceded to a political party, and wishing to see our country turn a page from one of its darker episodes, I enthusiastically voted for Obama in the primaries. I expected I would be voting for him to be President as well. As I’d not cast a vote for a Democratic presidential candidate since Carter’s first bid, this was not an insignificant action on my part. 

I just returned from Tampa with my wife who was attending a convention in Tampa. I had the opportunity to visit the Florida Holocaust Museum while there. Interested in all things Jewish, I seldom miss a chance to gain greater understanding of the life and history of the Jewish people. As I was looking at a poster sized photo of an early, enthusiastic, gathering of German citizens standing and cheering their recently elected leader, a chill ran down my back. It’s difficult to voice this, as I don’t wish it to sound as radical as I fear it will. But this photo made me think of the enormous crowds that gather at seemingly all of Senator Obama’s speaking events. While we were in Tampa, he spoke in our city of Springfield, Missouri, a heavily conservative area of about 200,000 people, and attracted 35,000 people. That is an astounding feat.

I do not suggest this man is Hitler, or that he is evil. It is only that I am discomforted by the possibility of our willingness to cede to him something that looks too much like adoration and a mindless desire to be led to where we know not. A further echo of the German spectacles of the 1930’s is that Obama also thinks in grand terms, and has shown a brilliant sense for staging grand spectacles of his own.  

Again, I am not suggesting this man should be considered a modern manifestation of Hitler. I do however recognize that men and women bearing the weight of  social, economic and wartime stresses, have in the past, willingly granted hope and powers to a man that should only be reserved for God. Further, even good men who are given such power rarely remain only good. 

I don’t know where this leaves me. Possibly with those that argue for a Christian stand against voting altogether. I’m not there just yet, but not that far either.

Michael Dee Smith</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More than once I have vigorously scolded fellow Christians for making ignorant and uncompassionate pronouncements against one or the other (mostly one and not the other) of our presidential candidates in this overly drawn out political season. </p>
<p>My own political views have gone through dramatic changes over the last few years. I came to feel evangelicals had been suckered by the Republicans from the 80’s onward, and that we had lost our witness as a result of our naiveté and idolatry. Desiring to be rid of the power I as a Christian had ceded to a political party, and wishing to see our country turn a page from one of its darker episodes, I enthusiastically voted for Obama in the primaries. I expected I would be voting for him to be President as well. As I’d not cast a vote for a Democratic presidential candidate since Carter’s first bid, this was not an insignificant action on my part. </p>
<p>I just returned from Tampa with my wife who was attending a convention in Tampa. I had the opportunity to visit the Florida Holocaust Museum while there. Interested in all things Jewish, I seldom miss a chance to gain greater understanding of the life and history of the Jewish people. As I was looking at a poster sized photo of an early, enthusiastic, gathering of German citizens standing and cheering their recently elected leader, a chill ran down my back. It’s difficult to voice this, as I don’t wish it to sound as radical as I fear it will. But this photo made me think of the enormous crowds that gather at seemingly all of Senator Obama’s speaking events. While we were in Tampa, he spoke in our city of Springfield, Missouri, a heavily conservative area of about 200,000 people, and attracted 35,000 people. That is an astounding feat.</p>
<p>I do not suggest this man is Hitler, or that he is evil. It is only that I am discomforted by the possibility of our willingness to cede to him something that looks too much like adoration and a mindless desire to be led to where we know not. A further echo of the German spectacles of the 1930’s is that Obama also thinks in grand terms, and has shown a brilliant sense for staging grand spectacles of his own.  </p>
<p>Again, I am not suggesting this man should be considered a modern manifestation of Hitler. I do however recognize that men and women bearing the weight of  social, economic and wartime stresses, have in the past, willingly granted hope and powers to a man that should only be reserved for God. Further, even good men who are given such power rarely remain only good. </p>
<p>I don’t know where this leaves me. Possibly with those that argue for a Christian stand against voting altogether. I’m not there just yet, but not that far either.</p>
<p>Michael Dee Smith</p>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-3#comment-312937</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 15:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-312937</guid>
		<description>Checking some buds&#039; friends lists on LiveJournal this morning.  All the political crap summarized in two words: RON PAUL! RON PAUL! RON PAUL!

How did everybody become a Ron Paulista overnight?  Have we got Paul-Pod People hatching all over the net?  Did Ron Paul just get a celebrity endorsement from Ayn Rand and John Galt?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Checking some buds&#8217; friends lists on LiveJournal this morning.  All the political crap summarized in two words: RON PAUL! RON PAUL! RON PAUL!</p>
<p>How did everybody become a Ron Paulista overnight?  Have we got Paul-Pod People hatching all over the net?  Did Ron Paul just get a celebrity endorsement from Ayn Rand and John Galt?</p>
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		<title>By: Ky boy but not now</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-3#comment-312862</link>
		<dc:creator>Ky boy but not now</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-312862</guid>
		<description>Ryan Cordle
&quot;I wasn’t really making the point about whether or not one vote mathematically matters.&quot;

So please tell us what was your point? I been trying to think about this for over a day now and don&#039;t understand. Or if I do I utterly disagree with your position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan Cordle<br />
&#8220;I wasn’t really making the point about whether or not one vote mathematically matters.&#8221;</p>
<p>So please tell us what was your point? I been trying to think about this for over a day now and don&#8217;t understand. Or if I do I utterly disagree with your position.</p>
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		<title>By: Black Angus</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-3#comment-312740</link>
		<dc:creator>Black Angus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 00:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-312740</guid>
		<description>Here in Australia we have compulsory voting and it&#039;s a great idea.  Looking on from across the Pacific I can&#039;t understand why people would be considering not voting.  I see that you don&#039;t have great choices, but hey, the rest of the world would love to have a say in who will be your President because your decision (or lack of it) affects us all.  
So please go and vote and vote well!  We&#039;re depending on you!
Also, imonk, when you said &lt;em&gt;I see charisma, intellect, opportunism, a lack of candor and a vast ocean of manipulative rhetoric.&lt;/em&gt; about Obama, I heard Clinton.  Eesh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here in Australia we have compulsory voting and it&#8217;s a great idea.  Looking on from across the Pacific I can&#8217;t understand why people would be considering not voting.  I see that you don&#8217;t have great choices, but hey, the rest of the world would love to have a say in who will be your President because your decision (or lack of it) affects us all.<br />
So please go and vote and vote well!  We&#8217;re depending on you!<br />
Also, imonk, when you said <em>I see charisma, intellect, opportunism, a lack of candor and a vast ocean of manipulative rhetoric.</em> about Obama, I heard Clinton.  Eesh.</p>
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		<title>By: Junior</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-2#comment-312667</link>
		<dc:creator>Junior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-312667</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not happy with either of the two main candidates, however, McCain gets my vote.

Lets be up front: 
Think about this: what has Obama ever done? NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. PERIOD. He&#039;s like a sophmore who&#039;s going to change the world, but  hasn&#039;t bothered to clean out the closet in his room.  Obama rarely even cast votes while serving in the senate.  He&#039;s done NOTHING!
 
My son, who used to live on the street (a result of some very bad choices) said, &quot;Obama reminds me of some of the people I used to run into.  Hustlers.  He&#039;s a hustler.&quot;  I agree.  Looks like the American people have been hustled.

What Republican politician could get away with making statements like, &quot;We&#039;ve got a righteous wind to our backs.&quot;  The mainstream media would go balistic, but Obama not only gets a pass but is upheld as some kind of deliverer.

As far as McCain&#039;s pick of Palin showing poor judgment, what about 20 years of sitting under a racist preacher?  Is that good judgment?  I can only imagine the fallout had McCain sat under the preaching of a KKK minister.  

What about his associations?  Good judgment?  Don&#039;t we teach our children not to hang around certain people because of their negative influence?  But we&#039;re not to apply this to Obama?
Give.Me.A.Break.

He&#039;s going to spread the wealth?  First, it&#039;s not his to spread.  If he wants to spread wealth he ought to start with Joe Biden who, according to his tax statements, makes almost three times that of Sarah Palin, but gives much less to charitable causes than she does.

If the election were American Idol I&#039;d vote for Obama in a heart beat.  But we&#039;re about to elect a man as leader of the free world.  What are we thinking?  McCain ain&#039;t that hot, but he&#039;s got more gravitas in his little toe that Obama does in his whole body!  May God have mercy on us!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not happy with either of the two main candidates, however, McCain gets my vote.</p>
<p>Lets be up front:<br />
Think about this: what has Obama ever done? NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. PERIOD. He&#8217;s like a sophmore who&#8217;s going to change the world, but  hasn&#8217;t bothered to clean out the closet in his room.  Obama rarely even cast votes while serving in the senate.  He&#8217;s done NOTHING!</p>
<p>My son, who used to live on the street (a result of some very bad choices) said, &#8220;Obama reminds me of some of the people I used to run into.  Hustlers.  He&#8217;s a hustler.&#8221;  I agree.  Looks like the American people have been hustled.</p>
<p>What Republican politician could get away with making statements like, &#8220;We&#8217;ve got a righteous wind to our backs.&#8221;  The mainstream media would go balistic, but Obama not only gets a pass but is upheld as some kind of deliverer.</p>
<p>As far as McCain&#8217;s pick of Palin showing poor judgment, what about 20 years of sitting under a racist preacher?  Is that good judgment?  I can only imagine the fallout had McCain sat under the preaching of a KKK minister.  </p>
<p>What about his associations?  Good judgment?  Don&#8217;t we teach our children not to hang around certain people because of their negative influence?  But we&#8217;re not to apply this to Obama?<br />
Give.Me.A.Break.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s going to spread the wealth?  First, it&#8217;s not his to spread.  If he wants to spread wealth he ought to start with Joe Biden who, according to his tax statements, makes almost three times that of Sarah Palin, but gives much less to charitable causes than she does.</p>
<p>If the election were American Idol I&#8217;d vote for Obama in a heart beat.  But we&#8217;re about to elect a man as leader of the free world.  What are we thinking?  McCain ain&#8217;t that hot, but he&#8217;s got more gravitas in his little toe that Obama does in his whole body!  May God have mercy on us!</p>
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		<title>By: Insighter</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party/comment-page-2#comment-312663</link>
		<dc:creator>Insighter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/election-day-2008-whine-and-sheesh-party#comment-312663</guid>
		<description>What are the most important criteria or standards we should employ in selecting candidates? I believe one is how candidates stand [how they act, not just what they say] in terms of tolerance/ intolerance.  Intolerance should be shunned and resisted in religion and politics both. In this election, the borders between church and state, spirituality and rationality, have become blurred. There is a reason why America, a profoundly religious nation since its inception, established a division between church and state. Perhaps it is similar to the reason why Jesus, the ultimate transformer, acted through the power of faith instead of politics in his own time. Government is a uniquely human endeavor; it is how people create their interdependent society and give shape to their present hopes and future dreams. A belief that a person, religious group, party or nation can invoke God on their behalf [implying that their opponents are less godly or less worthy] is not only wrong but dangerous, because there is no arguing about matters of faith. If religion is mixed with politics, elections become contests of faith, not rational discourse where people voice their worldly interests and preferences. Spiritualism and faith, and intellect and rationality, are fundamental components of the human makeup and condition, and exist side by side. Isn&#039;t it each person&#039;s responsibility to appreciate the appropriate zones of religious and political beliefs and actions, and to act accordingly? To mix religion and politics compromises them both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are the most important criteria or standards we should employ in selecting candidates? I believe one is how candidates stand [how they act, not just what they say] in terms of tolerance/ intolerance.  Intolerance should be shunned and resisted in religion and politics both. In this election, the borders between church and state, spirituality and rationality, have become blurred. There is a reason why America, a profoundly religious nation since its inception, established a division between church and state. Perhaps it is similar to the reason why Jesus, the ultimate transformer, acted through the power of faith instead of politics in his own time. Government is a uniquely human endeavor; it is how people create their interdependent society and give shape to their present hopes and future dreams. A belief that a person, religious group, party or nation can invoke God on their behalf [implying that their opponents are less godly or less worthy] is not only wrong but dangerous, because there is no arguing about matters of faith. If religion is mixed with politics, elections become contests of faith, not rational discourse where people voice their worldly interests and preferences. Spiritualism and faith, and intellect and rationality, are fundamental components of the human makeup and condition, and exist side by side. Isn&#8217;t it each person&#8217;s responsibility to appreciate the appropriate zones of religious and political beliefs and actions, and to act accordingly? To mix religion and politics compromises them both.</p>
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