Comments on: Dumb Up, Brother: A Spirituality of Ignorance

By: Jim P.

Jim P. — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:51:47 +0000

Monk wrote: “What I’m going to say to anyone listening is that I see little evidence that great learning or correct doctrine produces Christ-like people. It may, and it certainly has a part to play that can’t be eliminated.”

I agree. The Holy Spirit produces “Christ like people” and even then we must keep in mind that we are all sinners!

What that “mountain” pastor showed you that day was a person comitted to their vocation. He could have been a veritable “Einstein” theologically speaking and still showed the fruits of the Spirit and that is what is sort of confusing about your article. Sanctification isn’t about what we do; rather, it is about what God does through us. As sinners we are going to fail miserably on a daily basis. People are going to catch us on our “bad days”. You caught this pastor in one of his “good” moments.

But, if you felt ministered to, it was the Holy Spirit at work and not that pastor, and not you. Remember, God can speak through a donkey (Jack Ass) if He so chooses. Indeed, there are no “two sides of the coin” here. There is only one side of the coin and that is the work of God in our lives. Anything we do that we might feel makes us “better” are just filthy rags in the site of a Holy God who demands perfection. Christ is our perfection!

We can thank God for the pastor “Walters” of the world, but let’s also remember that all glory goes to God! I am sure “Pastor Walter” would want God to recieve all the praise for that day whilst assuring us all that he is a poor sinner in need of God’s daily unmerited grace and mercy.

By: Oloryn

Oloryn — Sun, 07 Oct 2007 09:38:33 +0000

I’ve long thought that those of us with an intellectual bent need to occasionally meditate on Luke 10:21, where Jesus almost dances a jig (the word translated ‘rejoiced’ can have connotations of spinning like a top - I don’t think this is ‘refined’ rejoicing - Jesus is excited), tickled pink that the intellectual elite of His day didn’t get it, but the ordinary, unintellectual, ignorant (’babes’) people did. You have to wonder if sometimes He ends up snickering over us.

Those of us with the gifts to deal with heavy theology too easily make the Christian life about heavy theology, which makes those who don’t have those gifts kind of secondary in the Kingdom. It’s too easy to forget that those gifts aren’t given to us for our own benefit, but to benefit those who aren’t so gifted. If our exercise of those gifts makes people think that we’re the Important People in the Kingdom, and they’re secondary, then we’ve got a ways to go in learning what those gifts were actually for.

By: jk

jk — Fri, 05 Oct 2007 22:20:59 +0000

The church I attend has a lay ministry. Not a lay pastor, a lay ministry, through and through. There is a monthly schedule of what brother will preach on what Sunday and whether it be on Sunday morn or in the evening. As a result, it’s not just professor preacher, nor unlearned zealot. It’s a combination. (Yes, without seminary training you can be as learned as anyone who came out of a seminary, if not moreso, and can read just as much. The difference, I think, is that doing this outside of seminary, you are not pressured to beleive what you are forced to read, but read at your leisure and give it all an honest appraisal. But I digress.) When one man does all the teaching in the congregation the people don’t get the full picture of the Bible. If you had a Walter this Sunday and the seminary guy the next, you’d get a fuller understanding. All theory and no application doesn’t work in any subject.

By: Nicholas Anton

Nicholas Anton — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:29:12 +0000

Prodomos

re; “It always comes back to liturgy, doesn’t it?”

According to my dictionary, “liturgy” is “a prescribed form/forms or ritual for public worship”, and not just “doing”. Post New Testament liturgy is simply man made. There is not even a prescribed form given in the New Testament for “communion”, and “baptism”.

By: Brendt

Brendt — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:22:11 +0000

Mostly, Walter takes a well known character or story and applies some principle from the scripture to the day to day experiences of his congregation.

Pardon me if I missed someone else already saying this in one of the comments, but it strikes me that this post is a pretty good mountain pastor message itself.

By: Matt

Matt — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:01:09 +0000

Personal Response here:

http://beyondfundamentalism.net/node/538

By: Prodomos

Prodomos — Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:23:04 +0000

It always comes back to liturgy, doesn’t it? Theology not done on one’s knees or through one’s hands and feet becomes an empty parody of its subject matter. Acts of kindness and mercy not patterned on the form and sense and sensibilities of liturgy or prayer become empty do-gooderism or works-righteousness. But ever since Descartes, Christians continue to struggle with the lie that thinking and doing, or the intellectual and the spiritual/virtuous, are two separable dimensions.

Was Walter shelving his mind or turning off his brain when he attended to dying? My guess is that he wasn’t. Nor should we.

If our theological pursuit of the Truth is getting in the way of our pursuit of the Good and the Beautiful, then our theology is usually just as problematic and flawed as our virtue.

By: SD Jones

SD Jones — Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:16:46 +0000

To the above, I meant that Finney was unschooled in theology and seminary training. He was a successful lawyer before he “took a retainer for the Lord’s cause.”

By: SD Jones

SD Jones — Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:14:54 +0000

Michael,
Thank you for this great story about Walter(s). My teacher in Modern Church History at the ELCA Lutheran Seminary I go to said to us yesterday that “Missions are God’s great joke on doctrine.” We were talking about Charles Finney, who went far beyond mere Arminianism and danced with Pelagianism in his theology. He was unschooled and abhorred the study of doctrine. He was also responsible for converting, some say, over 500,000 people. Walter, in your story, is a mission-oriented kind of guy, it seems to me, and all the doctrine in the world can’t stand against his Christ-like presence in your story and probably in his congregation as well. Like someone else in the responses, I am a bit of an intellectual snob as well and actually enjoy reading doctrine and theology. Your Walter story makes me wonder how much that stands as a wall against my seeking out the face of Christ in those who I encounter.
Peace!
Seth

By: Bob Sacamento

Bob Sacamento — Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:35:43 +0000

“Love one another as I have loved you. By this shall all men know you are my disciples if you have correct theology, proper worship, sound expository preaching and fervent praying.”

LOL!!!!!