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	<title>Comments on: Dr. Mike Wittmer: Heaven Is A Place On Earth: The IM Interview</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Headless Unicorn Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-2#comment-485414</link>
		<dc:creator>Headless Unicorn Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-485414</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Some evangelical leaders unwittingly support this idea when they leave the impression that God is selfish. They say that God exists solely for his own glory. He is like a cosmic vacuum cleaner, sucking up all the glory that we are obligated to give him.&lt;/i&gt; -- Dr Wittmer

Isn&#039;t that the same &quot;bloated spider&quot; analogy that Lewis uses to describe Satan in the preface to &lt;i&gt;The Screwtape Letters&lt;/i&gt;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Some evangelical leaders unwittingly support this idea when they leave the impression that God is selfish. They say that God exists solely for his own glory. He is like a cosmic vacuum cleaner, sucking up all the glory that we are obligated to give him.</i> &#8212; Dr Wittmer</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that the same &#8220;bloated spider&#8221; analogy that Lewis uses to describe Satan in the preface to <i>The Screwtape Letters</i>?</p>
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		<title>By: sue kephart</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-2#comment-480015</link>
		<dc:creator>sue kephart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-480015</guid>
		<description>ok great: not many are reading this anymore so I can be a bit piggy!!! I have been reading this over trying to figure out why some are having difficulty with Sunday morning worship.

Years ago my husband and I made a commitment that we would go to &#039;church&#039; on Sunday unless we were (as we say) throwing up. Why? It is a spiritual discipline. It&#039;s how we follow Jesus. We do spiritual disciplines because we are His disciples.
So on Sunday we go. If we are at Gethsemani we go to Mass. If we are with his family we are Methodist. Some times we are Baptist or non-demons but mostly we are Lutherans.

We do other spiritual disciplines ie daily Lectio, morning prayer and compline. We help the poor and give service where we see the need. We are great family celebrationist!!! We seek guidance from Sp. direction and Spiritual friendship. We spend time in solitude and silence and centering prayer. We seek retreat opportunities. I teach centering prayer to those who want to learn and we are both involved with small group ministry. He has a full time job and I have a part time small business. We do church work for our congregation. There is more but I have said enough. 

Why? It&#039;s what makes our lives work. We love the Lord and desire to be His followers. I can&#039;t wait to get to church on Sunday. To worship and receive Him in the Eucharist. I can&#039;t imagine why someone wouldn&#039;t want to be there.

Peace,
Sue</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok great: not many are reading this anymore so I can be a bit piggy!!! I have been reading this over trying to figure out why some are having difficulty with Sunday morning worship.</p>
<p>Years ago my husband and I made a commitment that we would go to &#8216;church&#8217; on Sunday unless we were (as we say) throwing up. Why? It is a spiritual discipline. It&#8217;s how we follow Jesus. We do spiritual disciplines because we are His disciples.<br />
So on Sunday we go. If we are at Gethsemani we go to Mass. If we are with his family we are Methodist. Some times we are Baptist or non-demons but mostly we are Lutherans.</p>
<p>We do other spiritual disciplines ie daily Lectio, morning prayer and compline. We help the poor and give service where we see the need. We are great family celebrationist!!! We seek guidance from Sp. direction and Spiritual friendship. We spend time in solitude and silence and centering prayer. We seek retreat opportunities. I teach centering prayer to those who want to learn and we are both involved with small group ministry. He has a full time job and I have a part time small business. We do church work for our congregation. There is more but I have said enough. </p>
<p>Why? It&#8217;s what makes our lives work. We love the Lord and desire to be His followers. I can&#8217;t wait to get to church on Sunday. To worship and receive Him in the Eucharist. I can&#8217;t imagine why someone wouldn&#8217;t want to be there.</p>
<p>Peace,<br />
Sue</p>
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		<title>By: sue kephart</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-2#comment-479893</link>
		<dc:creator>sue kephart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-479893</guid>
		<description>Ed,

I am not looking for anything. Sorry if you took it that way. I don&#039;t think your behavior is aberrant. I am just curious as to why you find Sunday worship unsatisfactory and also trying to be helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed,</p>
<p>I am not looking for anything. Sorry if you took it that way. I don&#8217;t think your behavior is aberrant. I am just curious as to why you find Sunday worship unsatisfactory and also trying to be helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-2#comment-479849</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-479849</guid>
		<description>Sue,
Since you are obviously looking for the &quot;a-ha&quot; hole in my spiritual life that would somehow explain my aberrant behavior I will be a snot and not answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sue,<br />
Since you are obviously looking for the &#8220;a-ha&#8221; hole in my spiritual life that would somehow explain my aberrant behavior I will be a snot and not answer.</p>
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		<title>By: sue kephart</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-2#comment-479821</link>
		<dc:creator>sue kephart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-479821</guid>
		<description>Ed,

By Spiritual practice I meant things like your prayer life, study, service, self denile and so on. Although I enjoyed the Bio. I like hearing peoples&#039; Spiritual journey and also their religious journey.

I am glad you are in touch with your Church and Pastors and continue your church work. May I suggest looking for answers regarding worship outside your SBC tradtion. I am not suggeting that the SBC has anything wrong. I am saying sometimes we need to open up to see some new realities that give us new insights insteed of looking at it with the same eyes.

May God Bless your journey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed,</p>
<p>By Spiritual practice I meant things like your prayer life, study, service, self denile and so on. Although I enjoyed the Bio. I like hearing peoples&#8217; Spiritual journey and also their religious journey.</p>
<p>I am glad you are in touch with your Church and Pastors and continue your church work. May I suggest looking for answers regarding worship outside your SBC tradtion. I am not suggeting that the SBC has anything wrong. I am saying sometimes we need to open up to see some new realities that give us new insights insteed of looking at it with the same eyes.</p>
<p>May God Bless your journey.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-2#comment-479768</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-479768</guid>
		<description>&quot;What is your Spiritual practice foundation?&quot; - Sue.

You asked, so let me see if I can answer your question (with apologies for hijacking this thread with my life story).

I was raised in the Southern Baptist church from birth, primarily in Birmingham and Montgomery Alabama.  My father was an ordained deacon and the son of an ordained Southern Baptist missionary / later pastor.  I spent my entire life up until leaving home for college in the Sunday AM/PM and Wednesday night life of a typical SBC kid growing up in the sixties and seventies.  I am eternally grateful and appreciative of the example of my parents and for all my parents did in exposing me to the gospel.  I chose to give my life to Christ of my own accord at the age of 11.  When I married after college, my wife and I maintained an active membership in various SBC churches for the first 22 years of our marriage.  As I said earlier, I walked away from regular Sunday attendance about a year ago.

I was ordained as a deacon at the age of 26.  I taught adult Sunday school of about 5 years and spent about 10 years in various choirs in the churches I have belonged in addition to serving as a deacon, a myriad of committee, and other volunteer positions.  I&#039;m told I am a gifted high tenor.  I was one of the &quot;in&quot; folks at the highest levels of lay service - you know, one of the ones asked to open Sunday night service in prayer and such.

I worshiped as a member of a Southern Baptist church in Germany for 3+ years.  I have likewise worshiped with Nepali Christians while doing volunteer work there for a month in 2007.  At various times in my life I have participated in worship in Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist and non-denominational services while visiting friends or after moving to a new area and looking for a church.  My wife and I have tended to gravitate back to that which we were raised on, namely the SBC.

Don&#039;t confuse my lack of Sunday AM attendance with a lack of appreciation of biblical authority.  I continue to maintain strong ties with my church and meet weekly with one of the pastoral staff to receive his counsel on the questions I have and to serve in other ways (engineering design work for church projects, maintenance, video tape production of church events, etc.).  Right now I am rewriting the administrative procedures for my church&#039;s fine arts school.

You seem to think I have some chip on my shoulder and think anyone that is a regular, upstanding member of a church in good standing is somehow out of touch with my &quot;enlightened&quot; views.  If I have given that impression - forgive me.  That is not my intention.  This is not about someone else&#039;s journey; it is about my journey and I only want to express the frustration, confusion, insights and questions I encounter.  I am thankful for this forum to express them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What is your Spiritual practice foundation?&#8221; &#8211; Sue.</p>
<p>You asked, so let me see if I can answer your question (with apologies for hijacking this thread with my life story).</p>
<p>I was raised in the Southern Baptist church from birth, primarily in Birmingham and Montgomery Alabama.  My father was an ordained deacon and the son of an ordained Southern Baptist missionary / later pastor.  I spent my entire life up until leaving home for college in the Sunday AM/PM and Wednesday night life of a typical SBC kid growing up in the sixties and seventies.  I am eternally grateful and appreciative of the example of my parents and for all my parents did in exposing me to the gospel.  I chose to give my life to Christ of my own accord at the age of 11.  When I married after college, my wife and I maintained an active membership in various SBC churches for the first 22 years of our marriage.  As I said earlier, I walked away from regular Sunday attendance about a year ago.</p>
<p>I was ordained as a deacon at the age of 26.  I taught adult Sunday school of about 5 years and spent about 10 years in various choirs in the churches I have belonged in addition to serving as a deacon, a myriad of committee, and other volunteer positions.  I&#8217;m told I am a gifted high tenor.  I was one of the &#8220;in&#8221; folks at the highest levels of lay service &#8211; you know, one of the ones asked to open Sunday night service in prayer and such.</p>
<p>I worshiped as a member of a Southern Baptist church in Germany for 3+ years.  I have likewise worshiped with Nepali Christians while doing volunteer work there for a month in 2007.  At various times in my life I have participated in worship in Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist and non-denominational services while visiting friends or after moving to a new area and looking for a church.  My wife and I have tended to gravitate back to that which we were raised on, namely the SBC.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t confuse my lack of Sunday AM attendance with a lack of appreciation of biblical authority.  I continue to maintain strong ties with my church and meet weekly with one of the pastoral staff to receive his counsel on the questions I have and to serve in other ways (engineering design work for church projects, maintenance, video tape production of church events, etc.).  Right now I am rewriting the administrative procedures for my church&#8217;s fine arts school.</p>
<p>You seem to think I have some chip on my shoulder and think anyone that is a regular, upstanding member of a church in good standing is somehow out of touch with my &#8220;enlightened&#8221; views.  If I have given that impression &#8211; forgive me.  That is not my intention.  This is not about someone else&#8217;s journey; it is about my journey and I only want to express the frustration, confusion, insights and questions I encounter.  I am thankful for this forum to express them.</p>
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		<title>By: sue kephart</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-2#comment-479744</link>
		<dc:creator>sue kephart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-479744</guid>
		<description>Also Ed,

I think we sometimes need to examine ourselves to see if we have an authority problem. I say this because it is something I need to keep constantly before me. If we can not be obedient to the Church authority that God has placed over us then we have little chance of being obedient to the Lord.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also Ed,</p>
<p>I think we sometimes need to examine ourselves to see if we have an authority problem. I say this because it is something I need to keep constantly before me. If we can not be obedient to the Church authority that God has placed over us then we have little chance of being obedient to the Lord.</p>
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		<title>By: sue kephart</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-2#comment-479698</link>
		<dc:creator>sue kephart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-479698</guid>
		<description>Ed,

I am called to worship God. I can do that alone or in commuity. Part of that call is in community.

I understand your mental frustration regarding the division of the Church. Which worship is &quot;right&quot;. I do not know. God loves variety. Look around at His creation.

Corporate worship is the basis of my Spiritual practice. God created us as social beings. My South American neighbor says their is no word for being alone in his native tongue. There is also need for silence and solitude and service to others and so on. For me weekly corporate worship is the foundation for the rest. What is your Spiritual practice foundation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed,</p>
<p>I am called to worship God. I can do that alone or in commuity. Part of that call is in community.</p>
<p>I understand your mental frustration regarding the division of the Church. Which worship is &#8220;right&#8221;. I do not know. God loves variety. Look around at His creation.</p>
<p>Corporate worship is the basis of my Spiritual practice. God created us as social beings. My South American neighbor says their is no word for being alone in his native tongue. There is also need for silence and solitude and service to others and so on. For me weekly corporate worship is the foundation for the rest. What is your Spiritual practice foundation?</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-1#comment-479412</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-479412</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your thoughts Sue.  I am glad you enjoy true worship in your experience.

I&#039;m not advocating attending or not, or choosing a different church institution that better suits me over another.  I quit a year ago but my wife continues to go with my blessings.

My point is that perhaps there are alternatives to the myriad of denominational Sunday morning events, and that maybe, just maybe, worship is not limited to or confined within the walls of sanctuaries on a predetermined day following a printed agenda.  

Open a Saturday paper in any major city and there will be two full pages of &quot;opportunities&quot; for worship.  Why is that?  Why can&#039;t we, the &quot;Church&quot;, agree on how to do &quot;church&quot;?  I am not spiritually capable of divining which is best and choosing one that works for me is more a matter of preference, comfort and feelings rather than discernment.  If nothing else, the total amount of money spent on 100 half-empty churches could be better split between 50 full churches with the rest going to do some real good in the world.

Finally, if we are dependent on a group of like-minded individuals to experience worship, then I would submit that there IS a social aspect to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your thoughts Sue.  I am glad you enjoy true worship in your experience.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not advocating attending or not, or choosing a different church institution that better suits me over another.  I quit a year ago but my wife continues to go with my blessings.</p>
<p>My point is that perhaps there are alternatives to the myriad of denominational Sunday morning events, and that maybe, just maybe, worship is not limited to or confined within the walls of sanctuaries on a predetermined day following a printed agenda.  </p>
<p>Open a Saturday paper in any major city and there will be two full pages of &#8220;opportunities&#8221; for worship.  Why is that?  Why can&#8217;t we, the &#8220;Church&#8221;, agree on how to do &#8220;church&#8221;?  I am not spiritually capable of divining which is best and choosing one that works for me is more a matter of preference, comfort and feelings rather than discernment.  If nothing else, the total amount of money spent on 100 half-empty churches could be better split between 50 full churches with the rest going to do some real good in the world.</p>
<p>Finally, if we are dependent on a group of like-minded individuals to experience worship, then I would submit that there IS a social aspect to it.</p>
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		<title>By: sue kephart</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/dr-mike-wittmer-heaven-is-a-place-on-earth-the-im-interview/comment-page-1#comment-479152</link>
		<dc:creator>sue kephart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=3364#comment-479152</guid>
		<description>Ed,

No one is forcing you to go to &quot;church&quot; on Sunday morning or any other time. Lots have opted out.

In my tradtion Worship is the basis for the church institution. The Church (Body Of Christ) gathers for Worshiping God. Without that we become a social group, educational group, discussion or support group but not a Religious group.

I am one who kind find lots of fault with institutionalized religion, my own and everybody elses&#039;. I try to put that aside during Worship because I am there with the gathered Body of Christ to Worship Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 

If your church institution is not giving you an adequate Worship experience go on some church visits and find one that does. There are plenty to pick from and a great variety. Or you can just stay home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed,</p>
<p>No one is forcing you to go to &#8220;church&#8221; on Sunday morning or any other time. Lots have opted out.</p>
<p>In my tradtion Worship is the basis for the church institution. The Church (Body Of Christ) gathers for Worshiping God. Without that we become a social group, educational group, discussion or support group but not a Religious group.</p>
<p>I am one who kind find lots of fault with institutionalized religion, my own and everybody elses&#8217;. I try to put that aside during Worship because I am there with the gathered Body of Christ to Worship Father, Son and Holy Spirit. </p>
<p>If your church institution is not giving you an adequate Worship experience go on some church visits and find one that does. There are plenty to pick from and a great variety. Or you can just stay home.</p>
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