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	<title>Comments on: Christmas 2005</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: SteveS</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5056</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5056</guid>
		<description>oops....should read &quot;no assumption behind the question that the grocery store DOES NOT EXIST&quot;....ugh, commenting on blogs with no preview is tricky!! ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oops&#8230;.should read &#8220;no assumption behind the question that the grocery store DOES NOT EXIST&#8221;&#8230;.ugh, commenting on blogs with no preview is tricky!! <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: SteveS</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5055</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5055</guid>
		<description>Michael, I&#039;m going to publicly respond to this and if you wish it to remain private, you can opt not to approve the comment (or you can edit it to your satisfcation) with no hard feelings on my end.  I have, however, no problem acknowledging publicly that it was my correspondence that asked &quot;Where is the hope?&quot;  And I appreciate the fact that you modified your original comment saying that I concluded you have no hope.  As you know from our private correspondence, I refuse to assert that you have no hope, and so your followup statement that there was an assumption behind the question is still inaccurate.

If I ask you &quot;Where is the grocery store?&quot; there is no assumption behind my question that the grocery store exists.  It is a sincere inquiry as to the location of said grocery store.

Likewise, when I ask you &quot;where is the hope?&quot;, I am not presuming there to be no hope. I am asking you (as I have spelled out very clearly in my correspondence to you) to help me understand what hope you are trying to convey, if any, in your writings?

This is not semantics.  It is honest dialogue.  And I have been thoroughly enjoying the dialogue because you have taken my question seriously (albeit misunderstood it a bit, I guess).  For that, I thank you.  But I don&#039;t wish to see the comment continued to be misrepresented.  Again, thanks for editing it, but it still does not fairly portray what I was asking.  I figured I would (with your permission and approval) allow people to hear what I was saying &quot;from the horse&#039;s mouth&quot; (so to speak)!

Blessings, Michael.
steve :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I&#8217;m going to publicly respond to this and if you wish it to remain private, you can opt not to approve the comment (or you can edit it to your satisfcation) with no hard feelings on my end.  I have, however, no problem acknowledging publicly that it was my correspondence that asked &#8220;Where is the hope?&#8221;  And I appreciate the fact that you modified your original comment saying that I concluded you have no hope.  As you know from our private correspondence, I refuse to assert that you have no hope, and so your followup statement that there was an assumption behind the question is still inaccurate.</p>
<p>If I ask you &#8220;Where is the grocery store?&#8221; there is no assumption behind my question that the grocery store exists.  It is a sincere inquiry as to the location of said grocery store.</p>
<p>Likewise, when I ask you &#8220;where is the hope?&#8221;, I am not presuming there to be no hope. I am asking you (as I have spelled out very clearly in my correspondence to you) to help me understand what hope you are trying to convey, if any, in your writings?</p>
<p>This is not semantics.  It is honest dialogue.  And I have been thoroughly enjoying the dialogue because you have taken my question seriously (albeit misunderstood it a bit, I guess).  For that, I thank you.  But I don&#8217;t wish to see the comment continued to be misrepresented.  Again, thanks for editing it, but it still does not fairly portray what I was asking.  I figured I would (with your permission and approval) allow people to hear what I was saying &#8220;from the horse&#8217;s mouth&#8221; (so to speak)!</p>
<p>Blessings, Michael.<br />
steve <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: wfseube</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5045</link>
		<dc:creator>wfseube</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 00:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5045</guid>
		<description>GregoryMark wrote: &lt;i&gt;As usual, the worship was glitzy, staged, professional, loud, utterly comtemporary, and I found myself on this Christmas morning wanting to wring the neck of whomever the church consultant is who said that it is best if churches turn their worship over to people no older (apparently) than 24 years old.&lt;/i&gt;

Gregory, Merry Christmas to you!  For the last 10 years, we&#039;ve been attending churches that do &quot;contemporary worship&quot;, and the Christmas services have been the same ilk as you describe.  It drives me bezerk.  Thank GOD He has led us to a PCA church now that does a lot of traditional worship, with just a touch of contemporary music mixed in.  It was SO refreshing to sing Christmas songs this year without the &quot;worship leader&quot; trying to &quot;jazz it up&quot; by making it Jamaican, rock &amp; roll, etc.  ARGH!  And to think that for 5 years, I contributed to that travesty as an electric guitar player.  Thank the LORD for waking me up to the fact that I shouldn&#039;t be contributing to the decimation of worship.

I feel your pain, and I hope/pray that the leadership of your church will wake up and discover what the word &quot;reverent&quot; means, just as I pray the same for the churches I&#039;ve attended prior to this past fall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GregoryMark wrote: <i>As usual, the worship was glitzy, staged, professional, loud, utterly comtemporary, and I found myself on this Christmas morning wanting to wring the neck of whomever the church consultant is who said that it is best if churches turn their worship over to people no older (apparently) than 24 years old.</i></p>
<p>Gregory, Merry Christmas to you!  For the last 10 years, we&#8217;ve been attending churches that do &#8220;contemporary worship&#8221;, and the Christmas services have been the same ilk as you describe.  It drives me bezerk.  Thank GOD He has led us to a PCA church now that does a lot of traditional worship, with just a touch of contemporary music mixed in.  It was SO refreshing to sing Christmas songs this year without the &#8220;worship leader&#8221; trying to &#8220;jazz it up&#8221; by making it Jamaican, rock &amp; roll, etc.  ARGH!  And to think that for 5 years, I contributed to that travesty as an electric guitar player.  Thank the LORD for waking me up to the fact that I shouldn&#8217;t be contributing to the decimation of worship.</p>
<p>I feel your pain, and I hope/pray that the leadership of your church will wake up and discover what the word &#8220;reverent&#8221; means, just as I pray the same for the churches I&#8217;ve attended prior to this past fall.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5037</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Dec 2005 02:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5037</guid>
		<description>Yeah....the culture only sees people between 18-35, and the church is right there. Every Christmas, I get letters from people who went to church looking for some anchor of tradition and were treated to the contemporary Christmas &quot;production.

I used to really worry about the fact that my church is doing nothing contemporary. I&#039;ve quit worrying about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah&#8230;.the culture only sees people between 18-35, and the church is right there. Every Christmas, I get letters from people who went to church looking for some anchor of tradition and were treated to the contemporary Christmas &#8220;production.</p>
<p>I used to really worry about the fact that my church is doing nothing contemporary. I&#8217;ve quit worrying about it.</p>
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		<title>By: GregoryMark</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5036</link>
		<dc:creator>GregoryMark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Dec 2005 02:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5036</guid>
		<description>I agree with your observations, Michael.  Regarding one aspect of your comments:  We attended church this Christmas morning (the church only cancelled half of its morning services -- usually holding two, it held one).  As usual, the worship was glitzy, staged, professional, loud, utterly comtemporary, and I found myself on this Christmas morning wanting to wring the neck of whomever the church consultant is who said that it is best if churches turn their worship over to people no older (apparently) than 24 years old.  Niche marketing at its worse.  I mused more than worshipped this morning, concluding that worship music styles are simply soulish preferences, and most churches have opted for the soulish preferences of the generation that hasn&#039;t yet reached 30.  I guess my musical preferences are stuck in the &#039;60s...the 1760s.  It would have been nice to have sung &quot;Hark the Hearld Angels Sing&quot; in a style closer to the way Felix Mendelssohn composed it, minus the amplified heavy beat, pounding rock percussion, stobelights and smoke for effect.  Maybe I&#039;ve just passed into the &quot;geezer&quot; phase of life, but it appears to me that the contemporary church has lost all sense of what it means to worship God with reverence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your observations, Michael.  Regarding one aspect of your comments:  We attended church this Christmas morning (the church only cancelled half of its morning services &#8212; usually holding two, it held one).  As usual, the worship was glitzy, staged, professional, loud, utterly comtemporary, and I found myself on this Christmas morning wanting to wring the neck of whomever the church consultant is who said that it is best if churches turn their worship over to people no older (apparently) than 24 years old.  Niche marketing at its worse.  I mused more than worshipped this morning, concluding that worship music styles are simply soulish preferences, and most churches have opted for the soulish preferences of the generation that hasn&#8217;t yet reached 30.  I guess my musical preferences are stuck in the &#8217;60s&#8230;the 1760s.  It would have been nice to have sung &#8220;Hark the Hearld Angels Sing&#8221; in a style closer to the way Felix Mendelssohn composed it, minus the amplified heavy beat, pounding rock percussion, stobelights and smoke for effect.  Maybe I&#8217;ve just passed into the &#8220;geezer&#8221; phase of life, but it appears to me that the contemporary church has lost all sense of what it means to worship God with reverence.</p>
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		<title>By: shilohhouse</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5035</link>
		<dc:creator>shilohhouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2005 23:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5035</guid>
		<description>In your article you wrote:

&quot;The year of Our Lord, Two Thousand and Five, will forever be known as the year where the same churches who boycotted stores for cancelling Christmas decided it was in the best interests of everyone to cancel Christmas services, being as the day had the bad form to occur on a Sunday, and we could all take a DVD home and have Christmas worship in front of a large flat-screen television.&quot;

I have to take issue with you on this issue, though not much.  To a great degree I agree with the concern of the lack of substance, legalism, and authenticity in American Christianity (and it exists elsewhere, too).  However, I have to say that there is a massive difference between a culture&#039;s elites (and their serfs) concerted attempt to eliminate ALL mention and evidence of the Christian origins of Christmas out of the very holiday that bears the name of the Founder of the faith that originates the holiday, and an act of some churches that are trying to accomodate people of a rapidly-changing culture to be in a position to hear and heed the message of the Savior and His Word.  

My two daughters, my son-in-law, and my younger daughter&#039;s boyfriend all attend a large megachurch in southern California which is associated with the &quot;emerging church&quot; movement.  They did not have church today, because practically everyone was gone, to visit family.  What they DID do was have eight, yes eight services from 6 pm Friday night through 10 pm Christmas Eve.  The services were jammed, and each person got that &quot;infernal&quot; DVD to take home, and share with family and shut-ins.  Many of those who will see those videos are people who will not be in any church on Christmas Day, or any other day for that matter, unless they hear the message of eternal life, through a medium like this one, and receive the Savior into their life.

You and I are both concerned for our culture, and our beloved country.  We will lose our country if we don&#039;t adjust as necessary to the changes going on.  So think about what you&#039;re saying, please.

Thank you for your kind consideration.

Sincerely,

Floyd Fernandez
San Diego, California</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your article you wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;The year of Our Lord, Two Thousand and Five, will forever be known as the year where the same churches who boycotted stores for cancelling Christmas decided it was in the best interests of everyone to cancel Christmas services, being as the day had the bad form to occur on a Sunday, and we could all take a DVD home and have Christmas worship in front of a large flat-screen television.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have to take issue with you on this issue, though not much.  To a great degree I agree with the concern of the lack of substance, legalism, and authenticity in American Christianity (and it exists elsewhere, too).  However, I have to say that there is a massive difference between a culture&#8217;s elites (and their serfs) concerted attempt to eliminate ALL mention and evidence of the Christian origins of Christmas out of the very holiday that bears the name of the Founder of the faith that originates the holiday, and an act of some churches that are trying to accomodate people of a rapidly-changing culture to be in a position to hear and heed the message of the Savior and His Word.  </p>
<p>My two daughters, my son-in-law, and my younger daughter&#8217;s boyfriend all attend a large megachurch in southern California which is associated with the &#8220;emerging church&#8221; movement.  They did not have church today, because practically everyone was gone, to visit family.  What they DID do was have eight, yes eight services from 6 pm Friday night through 10 pm Christmas Eve.  The services were jammed, and each person got that &#8220;infernal&#8221; DVD to take home, and share with family and shut-ins.  Many of those who will see those videos are people who will not be in any church on Christmas Day, or any other day for that matter, unless they hear the message of eternal life, through a medium like this one, and receive the Savior into their life.</p>
<p>You and I are both concerned for our culture, and our beloved country.  We will lose our country if we don&#8217;t adjust as necessary to the changes going on.  So think about what you&#8217;re saying, please.</p>
<p>Thank you for your kind consideration.</p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>Floyd Fernandez<br />
San Diego, California</p>
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		<title>By: dec</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5034</link>
		<dc:creator>dec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2005 16:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5034</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Michael, for a timely post that helped an audience of one.  Our Christmas Eve service was adequate last night, but the short commentary on the season led me to believe that the Holy Child dropped to earth to quickly be killed for (or against) our sins.  

Was nothing to be learned from God incarnate as he walked among some of the poorest, most marginalized groups of people in history?  He said that the meek among them would inherit the earth; that peacemakers are blessed; that followers who hunger and thirst to introduce justice into situations about them will be satisfied.  Anything here for us?

At times I feel that we evangelicals have our babe at Christmas (not a &#039;holiday babe&#039;, either) and a risen Lord on Easter held together with Pauline duct tape and catchy tunes.  How often are the purported sayings of that Babe and Savior woven into the values of our lives, our congregations, and our denominations?

Thanks, Michael, for reminding us that God indeed lived among us.  God knows us.  God had no problem being poor, walking wherever He went, sleeping in houses that weren&#039;t his own.  God didn&#039;t seem to be one of the beautiful people, never ran for office, never started a building campaign to enlarge a synagoge, didn&#039;t pray the prayer of Jabez or wear a WWJD wristband or write P&amp;W music.  God forgave sinners but never marched a freshly forgiven one to the synagoge and demanded that he or she be promoted to a high priestly rank in the name of diversity and inclusiveness.

Through the year I&#039;m reminded that our God is an awesome God; our God is a Mighty God; our God created all out of nothing.  Impressive, but I can&#039;t get my mind completely around it.  When I see a beautiful mountain scene I get sensory overload.  The sun slipping into the Carribean is lovely until I think about it too much:  that star is so far away, that&#039;s only the top of the water, the sun isn&#039;t &quot;setting&quot;, we&#039;re just turning; we&#039;re looking at a horizontal horizon that is really vertical, stuck to the side of the earth by gravity.  So many details.  Can&#039;t think about it.  I can understand a baby somewhat if I don&#039;t think too much.  Likewise, I can understand another human pretty well - I am one.  God became like me, lived in a place that I can fly to in half a day, showed how to act around people, and described how things would be if he were the local king.  I can close my eyes and visualize that clearly.

Thanks, Michael, for stopping me for awhile.  My mind is a little foggy, but this morning I&#039;ve got a small scale grip on Christmas that works for me.  The house is quiet, no grankids playing this year; my wife at church, I&#039;m still tired from last night.  You&#039;re probably preaching a sermon and I hope that you&#039;re enjoying doing that.  One day I may hear you preach.  Today, I&#039;m thankful that I read your words instead of hearing them.

That&#039;s why you&#039;re here aren&#039;t you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Michael, for a timely post that helped an audience of one.  Our Christmas Eve service was adequate last night, but the short commentary on the season led me to believe that the Holy Child dropped to earth to quickly be killed for (or against) our sins.  </p>
<p>Was nothing to be learned from God incarnate as he walked among some of the poorest, most marginalized groups of people in history?  He said that the meek among them would inherit the earth; that peacemakers are blessed; that followers who hunger and thirst to introduce justice into situations about them will be satisfied.  Anything here for us?</p>
<p>At times I feel that we evangelicals have our babe at Christmas (not a &#8216;holiday babe&#8217;, either) and a risen Lord on Easter held together with Pauline duct tape and catchy tunes.  How often are the purported sayings of that Babe and Savior woven into the values of our lives, our congregations, and our denominations?</p>
<p>Thanks, Michael, for reminding us that God indeed lived among us.  God knows us.  God had no problem being poor, walking wherever He went, sleeping in houses that weren&#8217;t his own.  God didn&#8217;t seem to be one of the beautiful people, never ran for office, never started a building campaign to enlarge a synagoge, didn&#8217;t pray the prayer of Jabez or wear a WWJD wristband or write P&amp;W music.  God forgave sinners but never marched a freshly forgiven one to the synagoge and demanded that he or she be promoted to a high priestly rank in the name of diversity and inclusiveness.</p>
<p>Through the year I&#8217;m reminded that our God is an awesome God; our God is a Mighty God; our God created all out of nothing.  Impressive, but I can&#8217;t get my mind completely around it.  When I see a beautiful mountain scene I get sensory overload.  The sun slipping into the Carribean is lovely until I think about it too much:  that star is so far away, that&#8217;s only the top of the water, the sun isn&#8217;t &#8220;setting&#8221;, we&#8217;re just turning; we&#8217;re looking at a horizontal horizon that is really vertical, stuck to the side of the earth by gravity.  So many details.  Can&#8217;t think about it.  I can understand a baby somewhat if I don&#8217;t think too much.  Likewise, I can understand another human pretty well &#8211; I am one.  God became like me, lived in a place that I can fly to in half a day, showed how to act around people, and described how things would be if he were the local king.  I can close my eyes and visualize that clearly.</p>
<p>Thanks, Michael, for stopping me for awhile.  My mind is a little foggy, but this morning I&#8217;ve got a small scale grip on Christmas that works for me.  The house is quiet, no grankids playing this year; my wife at church, I&#8217;m still tired from last night.  You&#8217;re probably preaching a sermon and I hope that you&#8217;re enjoying doing that.  One day I may hear you preach.  Today, I&#8217;m thankful that I read your words instead of hearing them.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why you&#8217;re here aren&#8217;t you?</p>
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		<title>By: Cultural Savage</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5033</link>
		<dc:creator>Cultural Savage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2005 05:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5033</guid>
		<description>&quot;In Christ alone my hope is found...&quot;
May this always be true of you, me, and the whole community of Christ in this blessed season, and year round.

Joyful Feast of the nativity and a peace filled Christmas seaseon to you as well Michael.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In Christ alone my hope is found&#8230;&#8221;<br />
May this always be true of you, me, and the whole community of Christ in this blessed season, and year round.</p>
<p>Joyful Feast of the nativity and a peace filled Christmas seaseon to you as well Michael.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus McWasp</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5032</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus McWasp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2005 02:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5032</guid>
		<description>Nice post, Michael. Merry Christmas to you from a new reader (past 2 months). Your comments are strong and quite well thought out, and your positions are often solid from my Catholic perspective, though approached from different (and often fruitful) angles. And, with 30+ years working for the Church, I resonate with a lot of your experiences in the ministry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post, Michael. Merry Christmas to you from a new reader (past 2 months). Your comments are strong and quite well thought out, and your positions are often solid from my Catholic perspective, though approached from different (and often fruitful) angles. And, with 30+ years working for the Church, I resonate with a lot of your experiences in the ministry.</p>
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		<title>By: wfseube</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christmas-2005/comment-page-1#comment-5031</link>
		<dc:creator>wfseube</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2005 01:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/index.php/archives/christmas-2005#comment-5031</guid>
		<description>Nice post, Michael.  You probably managed to slightly irritate every part of the Christian community, which means you were very accurate!  :-)

And I agree with your &quot;America&#039;s evangelicals&quot; quote.  That one was dead on target.  I&#039;d add a few more onto the &quot;bad books&quot; and &quot;pastors with nothing to say&quot; list, but I&#039;d probably annoy more folks than you did.  On the music front, current &quot;contemporary worship&quot; fare in evangelical churches has just about hit rock bottom.  I&#039;ve never seen so much content-free fluff in my life.  A buddy of mine calls them &quot;7-11&quot; songs - 7 words repeated 11 times...  &quot;Happy-clappy&quot; would be another apt description.

Merry Christmas to you and your family, from another of this year&#039;s new readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post, Michael.  You probably managed to slightly irritate every part of the Christian community, which means you were very accurate!  <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And I agree with your &#8220;America&#8217;s evangelicals&#8221; quote.  That one was dead on target.  I&#8217;d add a few more onto the &#8220;bad books&#8221; and &#8220;pastors with nothing to say&#8221; list, but I&#8217;d probably annoy more folks than you did.  On the music front, current &#8220;contemporary worship&#8221; fare in evangelical churches has just about hit rock bottom.  I&#8217;ve never seen so much content-free fluff in my life.  A buddy of mine calls them &#8220;7-11&#8243; songs &#8211; 7 words repeated 11 times&#8230;  &#8220;Happy-clappy&#8221; would be another apt description.</p>
<p>Merry Christmas to you and your family, from another of this year&#8217;s new readers.</p>
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