Comments on: Christine Wicker: The Internet Monk Interview with the Author of Fall of the Evangelical Nation http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:19:11 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Headless Unicorn Guy http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-379441 Headless Unicorn Guy Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:09:02 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-379441 <i>I said that I don’t think it makes sense to marry someone you’re not attracted to because they have some “spiritual” virtue you’re drawn to. Be friends. I wouldn’t marry someone I didn’t find attractive and I’d be ashamed if someone married me if they didn’t find me attractive, and held some religious belief up to me to prove their pure intentions. I think that’s living in a dream-land.</i> -- Pat Lynch If so, a lot of Christians are living in that dreamland. I remember (during my younger, single-and-desperate days after Ann dumped me) attending a Christian speaker on dating/marriage. He kept going on dissing and denigrating appearance, attraction, and common interests/likes, putting all importance on "shared values/spiritual virtues" et al. I thought, "That attractiveness and shared common interests are what draws you together in the beginning. If you're never attracted to them in the first place, how are you ever going to find out you have those 'shared spiritual values'?" All Sustainer, no Booster. The rocket would never leave the launch tube. (Since then, JMJ/Christian Monist has written about a way around this dilemma. He saw it a lot in Navigators -- using heavy-duty spiritual manipulation/"God Revealed to me..." to entrap the attractive Nav girl into marriage. The long-term success of this Christian (TM) Booster Charge for Initial Attraction/Meeting was shall we say "haphazard".) <i>Wasn’t it also St. Augustine who wrote that he used to pray, “Lord, make me chaste, but not yet.”?</i> -- That Other Jean That's because St Augustine was a real horndog in his younger days. I read an essay on the Web months ago (titled "Christian Sex Cult", I think) which argued that St Augustine's post-conversion monastic life also colored his ideas on women and sex in a dysfunctional manner. From horndog -- women primarily as sex partners -- to monk -- with no opportunity to befriend women, even in a non-sexual manner. And, as a horndog, prone to the "I have a problem, so everybody must have the same problem" syndrome. The essay didn't rip on St Augustine so much as point out that he was a mortal man with a load of accumulated baggage in the sex department, and that probably influenced his writings and teachings. <i>“People using sexual compatibility as a reason for pre-marital relations are simply trying to see if the other person performs well in bed with them.” What if they don’t?</i> -- Pat Lynch Discard and Replace, of course. I said that I don’t think it makes sense to marry someone you’re not attracted to because they have some “spiritual” virtue you’re drawn to. Be friends. I wouldn’t marry someone I didn’t find attractive and I’d be ashamed if someone married me if they didn’t find me attractive, and held some religious belief up to me to prove their pure intentions. I think that’s living in a dream-land. — Pat Lynch

If so, a lot of Christians are living in that dreamland. I remember (during my younger, single-and-desperate days after Ann dumped me) attending a Christian speaker on dating/marriage. He kept going on dissing and denigrating appearance, attraction, and common interests/likes, putting all importance on “shared values/spiritual virtues” et al.

I thought, “That attractiveness and shared common interests are what draws you together in the beginning. If you’re never attracted to them in the first place, how are you ever going to find out you have those ’shared spiritual values’?”

All Sustainer, no Booster. The rocket would never leave the launch tube.

(Since then, JMJ/Christian Monist has written about a way around this dilemma. He saw it a lot in Navigators — using heavy-duty spiritual manipulation/”God Revealed to me…” to entrap the attractive Nav girl into marriage. The long-term success of this Christian (TM) Booster Charge for Initial Attraction/Meeting was shall we say “haphazard”.)

Wasn’t it also St. Augustine who wrote that he used to pray, “Lord, make me chaste, but not yet.”? — That Other Jean

That’s because St Augustine was a real horndog in his younger days. I read an essay on the Web months ago (titled “Christian Sex Cult”, I think) which argued that St Augustine’s post-conversion monastic life also colored his ideas on women and sex in a dysfunctional manner. From horndog — women primarily as sex partners — to monk — with no opportunity to befriend women, even in a non-sexual manner. And, as a horndog, prone to the “I have a problem, so everybody must have the same problem” syndrome. The essay didn’t rip on St Augustine so much as point out that he was a mortal man with a load of accumulated baggage in the sex department, and that probably influenced his writings and teachings.

“People using sexual compatibility as a reason for pre-marital relations are simply trying to see if the other person performs well in bed with them.”

What if they don’t? — Pat Lynch

Discard and Replace, of course.

]]> By: Christine Wicker http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-371303 Christine Wicker Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:48:13 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-371303 This is such a wonderful discussion. It makes me happy to know that so many people are so passionately concerned about the things I'm concerned about. Thank you all. This is such a wonderful discussion. It makes me happy to know that so many people are so passionately concerned about the things I’m concerned about. Thank you all.

]]> By: Surfnetter http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-370669 Surfnetter Wed, 04 Feb 2009 02:35:05 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-370669 If you can turn any discussion on spirituality into a debate about premarital sex, homosexuality and/or abortion, then you just might be an______________:-) If you can turn any discussion on spirituality into a debate about premarital sex, homosexuality and/or abortion, then you just might be an______________:-)

]]> By: Surfnetter http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-370668 Surfnetter Wed, 04 Feb 2009 02:31:53 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-370668 Hey -- im -- you can base a new thread on a take-off on Jeff Foxworthy's "Redneck" routine :-) Hey — im — you can base a new thread on a take-off on Jeff Foxworthy’s “Redneck” routine :-)

]]> By: Surfnetter http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-370667 Surfnetter Wed, 04 Feb 2009 02:27:08 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-370667 Is that one of the ten attributes of an evangelical ...? Is that one of the ten attributes of an evangelical …?

]]> By: Patrick Lynch http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-370665 Patrick Lynch Wed, 04 Feb 2009 02:19:59 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-370665 "People using sexual compatibility as a reason for pre-marital relations are simply trying to see if the other person performs well in bed with them." What if they don't? “People using sexual compatibility as a reason for pre-marital relations are simply trying to see if the other person performs well in bed with them.”

What if they don’t?

]]> By: Surfnetter http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-370645 Surfnetter Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:44:02 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-370645 At one level it is all a trick God played on us -- He makes us so we want it, then tells us we can't have it, just making us want it more. And what does He get out of the deal ...? More people. (He really likes people) :-) At one level it is all a trick God played on us — He makes us so we want it, then tells us we can’t have it, just making us want it more.

And what does He get out of the deal …?

More people.
(He really likes people) :-)

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-370641 iMonk Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:25:11 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-370641 Here's what's ridiculous: Evangelicals who rant, rave, quote scripture and preach at anyone who isn't in their fundamentalist camp meeting are convincing exactly NO ONE. When someone unloads on me, I generally ask if they are feeling better now. One can always hope. Here’s what’s ridiculous:

Evangelicals who rant, rave, quote scripture and preach at anyone who isn’t in their fundamentalist camp meeting are convincing exactly NO ONE.

When someone unloads on me, I generally ask if they are feeling better now. One can always hope.

]]> By: John the Fisherman http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-370639 John the Fisherman Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:23:37 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-370639 Well, I guess I'm the token sinner here :) I was in high school during the late 70's, was an average teenager of the time in that I had as much sex as I could get, and I don't regret it one bit. It was beautiful, intimate, and didn't detract one iota from my marriage 12+ years later. The drive to reproduce is right there with the drive to eat and drink - survival of the species. Teenagers have always had sex, always will, and if that's God's way of tempting them to see if they reject sin, that's a mighty cruel thing to do. Why not make everyone an alcoholic, just to see if they can resist? As far as Paul, I believe he said it was better to be celibate than to be married, but who's defending the lifetime single life as the most Holy possible? Well, I guess I’m the token sinner here :)

I was in high school during the late 70’s, was an average teenager of the time in that I had as much sex as I could get, and I don’t regret it one bit. It was beautiful, intimate, and didn’t detract one iota from my marriage 12+ years later.

The drive to reproduce is right there with the drive to eat and drink – survival of the species. Teenagers have always had sex, always will, and if that’s God’s way of tempting them to see if they reject sin, that’s a mighty cruel thing to do. Why not make everyone an alcoholic, just to see if they can resist?

As far as Paul, I believe he said it was better to be celibate than to be married, but who’s defending the lifetime single life as the most Holy possible?

]]> By: willoh http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/christine-wicker-the-internet-monk-interview-with-the-author-of-fall-of-the-evangelical-nation/comment-page-2#comment-370638 willoh Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:19:02 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2786#comment-370638 Karen I share your comment. Imonk asked 10 questions. Sex was barely mentioned. Look what happened. ADD en mass. This is exactly the symptom! No wonder C.Wicker Bailed out. We were told to spread the love and message of the messiah, instead we itch and groan over the behavior of people outside the church.None of our business! And we set preachers up like they are the Pope and complain about the Catholics. "I suspect that the notion of a God who is punishing but who also generally supports the American status quo will continue to appeal to many evangelicals. In fact, anything else seems ungodly to them." If this is true somebody help me. I went to Ms. Wickers site, tested myself on 9 issues and horror of horrors, it seems I am an Evangelical. Please issue me my card so they stop throwing me out of their churches. What is appealing about a pro_USA God who punishes? Honestly, is that a biblical image? What happened to "Render unto Caesar" showing a duality of government and God and a duality of responsibility. I am glad Imonk's guest is the expert on this, not me. I am just going to spread the Good News and try not to be an idiot. I feel it is possible to do both. Karen I share your comment. Imonk asked 10 questions. Sex was barely mentioned. Look what happened. ADD en mass.
This is exactly the symptom! No wonder C.Wicker Bailed out. We were told to spread the love and message of the messiah, instead we itch and groan over the behavior of people outside the church.None of our business! And we set preachers up like they are the Pope and complain about the Catholics.
“I suspect that the notion of a God who is punishing but who also generally supports the American status quo will continue to appeal to many evangelicals. In fact, anything else seems ungodly to them.” If this is true somebody help me. I went to Ms. Wickers site, tested myself on 9 issues and horror of horrors, it seems I am an Evangelical. Please issue me my card so they stop throwing me out of their churches. What is appealing about a pro_USA God who punishes? Honestly, is that a biblical image? What happened to “Render unto Caesar” showing a duality of government and God and a duality of responsibility.
I am glad Imonk’s guest is the expert on this, not me. I am just going to spread the Good News and try not to be an idiot. I feel it is possible to do both.

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