Christians: What are you saying about the President?
January 13, 2009 by iMonk
When Mr. Obama was elected, I told some of my friends, “This is going to be difficult for some people.”
And, unfortunately, not only was I right, I was right on the money as to who would have the most difficult time seeing a black Democrat take the office of President.
For the past two months, almost daily, I have listened to too many- not all thankfully, but many- of the evangelical Christians around me say untrue and hateful things about President-elect Barak Obama. As Inauguration Day grows closer, the rhetoric is getting worse.
“I will not support a man who hates our flag and hates our Bible.” This from an educated adult.
“He’s not even a Christian. He’s a Muslim.” I have heard this over and over and continue to hear it.
“He’s not my President.” This from all kinds of people.
“I hate Obama. I’d like to get in his face.” And worse. This from a child.
“We shouldn’t allow our children to watch the inauguration.” From an adult.
“I can’t wait till he’s _________ed.” I’ll skip the word so my blog isn’t sent to some FBI list. This from teenage boys, of course.
I could go on and on and on with these quotes. I hear them and hear of them almost every single day I am around my fellow Christians.
I did not vote Barak Obama. I barely voted for John McCain. The choices this year left me unenthused to say the least.
Obama’s solutions to political, foreign policy, social and economic policy all seem wrong to me, and I’m concerned about his lack of experience.
I’m hopeful that he will be a good president because I think he knows that he is a historic leader coming to power at a critical time. I believe he’s made many good choices for cabinet positions. I think he is smart and I understand he doesn’t suffer fools and divas gladly.
I’ll pray for him.
Scripture tells me to pray for my leaders. They are ordained of God. (Romans 13, I Timothy 2, I Peter 2)
I am to pray for all those in authority. I am to submit to them as authorities established by God. I am to pay my taxes, obey the laws and avoid doing what is illegal.
As much as it depends on me, I am to be a peaceful citizen of this country. Should my President ask me to do what I cannot do without violating the law of God, then I must be faithful to God.
Let me say this again: Scripture is clear that those in authority are to have my obedience, my prayers and my cooperation in all things that do not violate my loyalty to Jesus Christ.
These commands were all written to first century Christians who lived under hostile, pagan, anti-Christian, often actively persecuting Roman governments. No group of Christians in the first three centuries of the church every lived under a Christian ruler. Yet all these Christians took seriously the command to “Honor the King” and to “submit to and pray for” those rulers as much as possible.
If you are an evangelical Christian adult, please hear me out:
You are sinning- badly and boldly- when you publicly denigrate and lie about the President. You have no basis to do this. Surely you know that this is wrong.
You can state your opposition to the President as you choose, but it is wrong to say that a Christian should not watch the Inauguration, pray with Rick Warren and pray for President Obama when he puts his hand on the Lincoln Bible.
You can oppose him in every way, but to speak threatening, hateful, hostile or untrue words is wrong, and it makes Christians appear, once again, to be hateful, hostile, unconcerned with truth and selfish to a fault.
To speak this way in front of children and to pass this kind of rhetoric and attitude on to them is no different from passing on the worst kinds of racial or religious prejudice to our children. Our children trust us and believe what we say. When we say “Obama hates the Bible and hates Christians,” we are brainwashing our kids with untruths and paranoid mythology.
I know that many of you will be firing back at me saying that abortion and gay marriage and other social issues outweigh the Biblical commands to pray for, submit to and obey this particular leader. I agree with you that his policies in these areas should be opposed- legally and without hateful personal attacks and untruths. But I cannot agree with your abandonment of what the Bible clearly teaches. And I deplore your choice to speak these words in front of unbelievers and young people. You need to repent, and if necessary, apologize.
As we approach January 20, please read the Bible’s many commands to Christians regarding our attitude toward the civil government. Remember that these commands were written when everyone knew that Jesus was executed by the government and every government was set against the belief that Jesus, not Caesar, was Lord.
Nero was no friend of Christians in the first century. Neither was Domitian. Today, the commands of scripture apply to Christians in China, in Iraq, and in India. They apply to all Christians living under hostile governments.
Jesus lived under a cruel Roman governor, yet he submitted and obeyed that governor, even to the point of death.
Let us speak the truth in love. Let us love those we may not agree with. Let us leave the right example for children and young people. And let’s not engage in blatant sin, and then excuse it, in the name of politics.
>>Rev. Ernesto: “Why did the Republican party overwhelmingly lose the ethnic religious conservative?”
Because they totally lied to us for 8 years! They did not put forth the values they said they would in any arena. The solid conservative tax and spend system was no where to be found, and because the republican party as it exists today is NOT conservative. R. Regan said he did not leave the democratic party it left him. well I did not leave the republicans, they left me.
I did not vote for Pres. Elect Obama. I feel he is inexperienced and under qualified. I do not like any of his picks for anything. He is very political, more political than practical. I do not agree with his opinions about anything. I do not know his religious status, what I have heard him say about the bible was wrong and ill informed.
I am glad he won. My black brothers and sisters have a little different attitude, and they should. I remember when JFK won, and all the
Catholic families in my area had his picture proudly displayed.
I am glad he won because he is an effective public speaker, something missing for a while.
I am glad he won because the other side was failing, I think due to abandoning their basic political platform planks.
I am glad he won because a change is sorely needed.
I agree that God has put the people in charge of the USA. The people chose B.H. Obama, he is my president. I will not only pray for him I will support him.
Oh, for the record. Though I’m a Democrat, I am staunchly against abortion. I could not do that. I am staunchly against homosexuality and everything related to it.. But I’m notagainst the homosexual. The behaviors we’re talking about are from the same basket of evil goodies as adultery, child molestation, murder, lying, stealing,gluttony, idol worship, and so forth. So where’s the outcry against the other equally devastating and commonly practiced behaviors?
monk,
I was disappointed to see you use scare quotes around the word marriage.
You may not condone the marriages of thousands of gay & lesbian couples, but it is disrespectful and even hateful to belittle them.
g
Carolyn,
I hear plenty of outrage against almost all those things (idol worship being the lone holdout – hard to make that case in a free society). But they aren’t political issues as such because everyone agrees that they’re bad.
That’s the difference. It is significant.
Gordo, if our definition of marriage is a permanent bond between a man and a woman, it is not disrespectful to call a different bonding by a different name.
I don’t hear much outrage against it. Look at the divorce/remarriage rate in the church. Look at the number of people that there’s not nine months between the wedding day and the day the baby is born – if there’s a wedding day at all.
And here’s a little factoid for the single issue voters to think on: We’ve had Bush in office for eight years. Abortion is still legal. In the last eight years more advances have been made toward gay marriage than there ever was under Clinton. Before Clinton was in office, we had a Republican in office for twelve years. Abortion is still legal.
Republicans could give a rat’s hind-parts about abortion or gay marriage. They just use it to trick the so-called Christian right into throwing in their lot with them while they laugh up their sleeves at how gullible you all are.
Dear Aliasmoi,
Yes, President Bush did not make abortion illegal. (not sure that he could have, even if he had wanted to.) BUT, especially in his last days, he has made it possible for medical professionals to refuse to do abortions. That is something that my understanding of FOCA would remove. Also, under him, my tax money is NOT going to encourage abortions in 3rd world countries.
Personally I consider those good things.
I am concerned about our President Elect because he is inexperienced, and seems clueless that first comes jobs, preferably manufacturing, and then the economy has a better chance of recovering.
>…..And anyone who did not see God in this while watching the reaction of the crowd in Grant Park on election night had better check the condition of his or her own heart.
Oh good grief.
In what Bible do I get to read this kind of thing: God is at work in who America elects President?
“I think his policies on many issues (abortion and gay rights are just two) will be a disaster. ”
Interestingly the word leaking out is he wants these issues to go away for a while. They are too divisive and there’s real work to be done.
Interesting if true. We’ll see.
As to single issue voting I have a question. Would you vote for the village idiot who is with you on a single issue vs. the MIT grad is is against you on this single issue but with you on almost anything else?
Aliasmoi,
Actually, divorce wasn’t in the list. Do you ever hear outrage about adultery, child molestation, murder, lying, stealing, or gluttony? I do. And just for the record, I’m outraged about divorce as well, but I really don’t think making it illegal is realistic, so it’s not likely to be a big political issue.
And also for the record, your statement that “Republicans could give a rat’s hind-parts about abortion or gay marriage. They just use it to trick the so-called Christian right into throwing in their lot with them while they laugh up their sleeves at how gullible you all are” is nonsense. Some Republicans DO care about those issues, some don’t, and most probably don’t care enough, but please spare me the broad-brush “you’re all a bunch of idiots unless you follow me to Obamaland” crap. One of the reasons abortion is still legal after 8 years of Bush is that Republicans DON’T create bills like the FOCA that aim to take an issue like abortion and destroy all opposition to it by fiat. These issues are much more complex than you are representing them.
“as I walked around that neighborhood I saw about 20 more Mccain signs and not one Obama on a lawn.”
Studies have indicated that the newer a housing development the more politically stratified it tends to be. Any many older neighborhoods with gentrification at play are trending the same way. Political diversity in neighborhoods has been declining for a while. I may be there just weren’t many Obama supporters living there.
Questions:
1. Would anyone on here vote for a pastor based solely on his views on abortion and gay marriage?
2. I really am frustrated at people who act as if all pro-lifers are on the same page regarding what exact laws they would pass. We all know that pro-lifers differ markedly in who they would prosecute for murder.
For instance, is anyone on here prepared to say that a pro-life position must prosecute a minor female for murder if she has an abortion?
3. Why do all the other things in scripture that God clearly hates and opposes not rise to the level of abortion and gay marriage?
4. Is America a Christian nation? What does that mean? Where in scripture is that taught? Who officially is the custodian of this status?
1. I might vote against someone on those two issues, but I would not vote for them solely based on those issues
2. Yes – abortion is murder – there are consequences for any action, age/capacity may mitigate the level of response, but there is still consequence.
3. Because we like to have safe issues to hate against – I am not gay, so it’s easy for me to be against it. Other sins – lets just not talk about them, ok?
4. No
So the only consistent pro-life position is that doctors, girl and parents if they were involved should all be prosecuted for murder?
This is, in your view, the pro-life position that we all have to endorse to actually be pro-life?
Bill
“Hard to pray for him? I don’t get it. Why is it hard to pray for people you disagree with? Good grief shouldn’t they be the most natural object of our prayers?”
Because there are a lot of people, including “dedicated Christians” who would rather the federal government collapse than see him succeed as President. Even if abortions went down and gay marriage never made it to the federal level during his term. The mind set is he’s the enemy and must be destroyed.
By the way the person who said the GOP has used abortion and gay marriage to manipulate conservative voters like me and then none nothing is absolutely right. Anyone who still believes the rhetoric of the GOP on any social/moral issue far surpasses me in faith. I’m tired of being lied to by these big government “conservatives.”
And to the guy upset that I put “marriage” in quotes, I don’t believe a union between people of the same gender is a marriage. My religion requires me to have another definition. You and the state can call it what you want. I’m not insulting you by saying that I don’t see a marriage when it’s not a man and a woman. I don’t particularly care to prohibit it, but I’m not going to have my faith dictated to by your preferences.
Answers:
1. I’ve never been in a position to “vote” in a pastor, but if my choices were a candidate that supports the moral teaching of the Christian faith and one who doesn’t, then I’ll take the one who does.
2. I don’t think it’’s necessary to decide what sentences and punishments to exact in order to decide that something should be illegal.
3. Abortion and gay marriage are defended as being civil rights in our day and age. Many other things that God hates and opposes aren’t in the position of being defended in our society. I don’t see why that is difficult to understand.
4. The concept of America as a Christian nation is not taught in Scripture and there is no “custodian” of it, but rather the Christian nature of America comes from the fact that Christianity, in one form or another, is practically endemic to American culture. It doesn’t mean that Scripture teaches it. It doesn’t mean that God demands it. It doesn’t mean that the Founders intended it. It is not a “top-down” thing, it is a “bottom-up” thing. The fact that the U.S.’s population has always been overwhelmingly Christian makes it, in that sense only, a “Christian nation.”
I find it funny when I meet a serious pro-lifers who are also anti-government zealots. We are going to need the mother of all nanny states (a very appropriate term) if we ever get serious about being pro-life. Federally subsidized daycare, federally subsidized adoption programs, federally mandated paid maternity leave, and shock, horror, gasp!, socialized medicine. To paraphrase Carl Sagan, “billions and billions of dollars.” Which is one of the reasons why it’ll never happen.
If a home is burning down and a mother is somehow outside and her baby is inside, and she is either unable or afraid to run back inside the burning house and save the baby should we prosecute her for murder?
A woman who already has two children under the age of five – her husband has run off with another woman. She finds out he hasn’t been paying the mortgage for months, he’s also cleaned out the bank accounts. She’s got no job. She’s got no money. She has no family she can turn to. She isn’t religious, so she has no faith community to turn to. Though let’s be honest, most churches would just SAY they’re going to pray for her and through $20 her way every once in awhile. She’s got two small children she needs to figure out how to feed and shelter, and on top of it all she’s pregnant.
I don’t feel like I can judge that woman since I’ve never been in that position. When I’m honest about it, I’m not sure what I would do if I were in that position. Is this situation a tragedy? Absolutely. Is it murder? I really don’t think so.
How can a population be “Christian” in anything other than an “adherence?” What percentage of the American population is actually in a saving relationship with God through Christ? The vast majority? Allllrightteee.
Illegal without specific sentences and punishments? OK, so what….a judge or jury hears the murder case and decides what to do? So we could have a thousand different sentences from execution to a fine?
My question on the pastor was Would you vote for a pastor only on these two issues?
The Bible mentions hunger thousands of times. Why no similar outrage? Possible reason: We’re the guilty parties and there’s no convenient “devil” to blame.
peace
ms
The Bible mentions hunger thousands of times. Why no similar outrage? Possible reason: We’re the guilty parties and there’s no convenient “devil” to blame.>>>>
But, Michael!!! Don’t you know God’s going to wink and nod at all our sins??? It’s all those other people he’s gonna send to hell!!!!
iMonk-
I really don’t understand your problem with my definition of “Christian nation.” Of course it means “adherence.” Of course it doesn’t necessarily mean “actually having a saving relationship with Christ.” Are you going to tell me that the term is entirely meaningless unless the “vast majority” can be proven to have a “saving relationship with God in Christ”? Allllrighteee.
Did I say abotion should be illegal but without specific sentences and punishments? No, I did not. I merely said that I am not concerned with specifying sentences and punishments. How we as a society punish is a separate issue from whether or not we condemn.
I answered the question on the pastoral vote.
There are countless Christian ministries that address poverty and hunger in real and tangible ways. I’ve never been in a church that didn’t.
I want to thank you for this entry, Michael. I am a Christian first and foremost, but I (gladly) voted for Barack Obama, because I believe he was a better choice for our country than John McCain (and, in my opinion, better than any of the candidates we saw from either side of the aisle, from primary season on).
And it’s not that the abortion issue isn’t important to me — it’s that I don’t think outlawing abortion (again) is the best solution for reducing its numbers. After all, when abortions are illegal, women still have them, but then many of them die.
I’m not going to fill up your blog comments with what I do think is the best solution, but suffice it to say I think that caring for families is need is clearly in line with scripture’s prescription for the church (cf Acts 2:42-end; Acts 6), and I can’t help that think that if we (the church) put the effort into helping families that we currently put into the Pro-Life movement, fewer women would feel like abortion the only “choice” left for them.
At any rate, I believe President-Elect Obama is a good, thoughtful man, and I’m hoping he’s the real deal when it comes to changing how we talk about and handle divisive issues in this country. I’m tired of both sides demonizing each other. I’m tired of all the hate.
I simply don’t see how the term Christian nation can mean anything other than a descriptor in an almanac. When my co-worker says “We must oppose Obama because we are a Christian nation and we can’t have someone like him as President,” that’s some notion of theocracy or Christian government that seems quite different from simply distinguishing us from Hindus.
The pro-life community seems to believe that it can unite around “make abortion illegal” and never deal with the specifics. And there will be plenty of specifics. But sure, we can all go to rallies and say we oppose abortion. I do. But I also oppose treating women who have abortions as murderers. I’m probably not alone. I’d assume the pro-life community has at least a dozen different major approaches to the entire question. I think we still have some work to do.
I’m glad to know that in the future, churches will be insisting the President represent their values on hunger. I saw all the church response, but I’ve missed the insistence the President endorse what we do and pledge his support.
peace
ms
Imonk
No, that is my position. And if you really must know, I think many birth control methods are abortifcants also (and I am not even catholic!)
I think the consistent position is – if abortion kills a person, it is murder. If you think it does not kill a person, it is not murder.
I can, and have, voted for pro abortion politicians. I just don’t pretend what they are not.
Perhaps some see levels of “pro life” politicians. I dont. They either are a spade, or they are not
Imonk — “What Bible …” shows God involved in selecting political leaders? How about … John18:11
To Pilate “…Jesus replied, ‘You would have no power over me at all if it had not been given you from above …’”
And to the abortion issue people: Chief Justice Warren Burger, who voted with the majority in Roe v Wade was appointed by Nixon. And before him Earl Warren, who presided over what was perhaps the most liberal Court in the history of this Country was appointed by Eisenhower. Both were expected to lead conservative legal movements in this Country. The beauty of our Constitutional system is that one person can’t change things, and can’t be sure what will happen even with his best efforts. Our Constitution is like the Ark of the Covenant in that you get into trouble when you try and steer it your way.
[MOD edited]
iMonk-
I’m sorry, I was trying to answer your question, not make every stupid thing a fellow Christian has said to you with the phrase, “Christian nation” tacked onto it make sense to you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Nevertheless I do think that the Christian heritage of the U.S. is unique and important, even if it doesn’t make us Heaven On Earth.
The work the pro-life community really has to do is to decide whether or not we REALLY BELIEVE that babies lives are important at any point before their feet are out of the birth canal. Unfortunately we seem to be in the other direction. Seems as though most people don’t feel we can have a free and just society unless people have the freedom to kill the unborn. And until we solve every other societal problem, I guess it isn’t even worth considering. Too bad.
I didn’t vote for President-Elect Obama, too leftist for me. But I will pray for his decision making, his soul, and his well being.
As far as all the tangents in this thread, let those who opinions are more important than mine respond and comment. I have nothing to contribute that would mean anything to anyone other than my Father in Heaven. And He already knows.
The pro-life community seems to believe that it can unite around “make abortion illegal” and never deal with the specifics.
Hear! Hear!
The vast majority of the anti-abortion side refuses to even think about this part of the issue, much less address it. And when it is brought up there tends to be a chorus of “quit being difficult”.
lol
I think there is plenty of gross over characterization on both sides of this issue
Something I find just as disturbing as the anti-Obama rhetoric coming out of the Right is the messianic adoration of him by many on the Left. Remember those t-shirts that had a picture of Bush and said “not my president”? I’d like one of Obama that says, “My President. Not My Messiah.”
What we have in Obama is the demographics of America in one person. He’s half White, obviously Black, but not of slave stock. And he’s from Chicago but was raised in Hawaii. He’s Chrisitan with an Islamic name. And he’s obviously sensitive and compassionate — concerned with the lowly from whence he came and able to fly with the lofty. He’s a good man and a demonstration in his personal history of what is possible only in America.
What his opponents are projecting about what his administration will bring is just that — only projection, not prophecy.
I say to you what I say to anyone who is projecting about the future from a place of fear and apprehension: Don’t worry — pray….
I think America has plenty of messianic nonsense in its politics on both sides of the aisle. Jesus is the Messiah, not Reagan or Obama or anyone else. Geesh. When did we all start thinking the federal government was what America is all about. They’re all a bunch of people living off the public doing almost nothing. Go join a local food pantry or something that makes a difference.
Too much media of all kinds in our heads. Seriously. Way too much.
Don’t worry about the Messianic adoration, either. Huckabee had a funny quote that Jesus wouldn’t be dumb enough to run for president.
That’s undoubtedly because He knows that from that position He wouldn’t be able to get much done.
If we “Christians” truly believe “it” is just a roiling soup of forming cellular matter, then wring your hands and let’s talk about the clinical issues of abortion in the assuredness of our intellectual gnosticism.
If however there is the possibility that divinity may be at work in the womb (or maybe even before the womb as we’ve been lead to believe), woe to us who toy with His plan.
Also, the “either/or” arguments that only allow two extreme choices – the prolife village idiot or the refined issue savy sophisticate is such a manipulative trap. Argue from depth not superficiality.
Nothing in this long and interesting thread alters a point made earlier – If you can’t get the issue on the holiness of life correct, how can you possibly be entrusted with the rest of it?
When in doubt, err on the side of life – always. Unless of course we’re all just so much chemical soup. BTW, what’s on the menu today?
iMonk, interesting that this thread wasn’t to devolve into a debate on “you know what”. Yet something keeps pulling us in that direction. hmmm?
“I understand he doesn’t suffer fools and divas gladly.”
Oh, oh. His first foreign visit is not going to go well then. He’s meeting Stephen Harper.:^)
I’ll pray for both of them.
Flatrocker
“Also, the “either/or” arguments that only allow two extreme choices – the prolife village idiot or the refined issue savy sophisticate is such a manipulative trap. Argue from depth not superficiality.”
I guess I feel justified in the argument. In 94 we elected to Congress a somewhat simple minded ex police chief who, after the election, was such a non starter and made so many nonsense statements that he was overwhelmingly thrown out the next year by someone who’s still in Congress. The former running against the big issue and the later for it. It wasn’t a trap argument. We did it and it cemented the other side for decades.
I’ll pray for whoever is in office. But as one comedian said, “you can’t fix stupid”.
I am with Sonja on this one. (She wrote on 14 Jan 2009 at 9:19 am.) I, too, voted joyfully for Obama and am excited about his being president. I am a white female, brought up as a Catholic (but I am now an “emerging” type of Christian, I guess). I also feel a little sorry for him, because I think it is going to be very tough being president at this time. I am glad he is surrounding himself with knowledgeable people. My prayers are for his safely and success and safety for his family. (For the record, I don’t agree with him on all things.)
Joanie D.
Hmmm … a coupla things.
First, just because the feds/Congress decides to stick their nose in and pass a law, doesn’t make it their business. So, just because they’ve decided to take up FOCA, doesn’t make it right and the states may still override it with individual laws of their own, but it will be more difficult.
Second, even if FOCA does get passed that doesn’t necessarily mean hordes of women will be driven to abortion doctors to have abortions. Do any of you realize just how traumatic it is for the mother? This is a terrible place for her and not an easy decision. The passing of a law will not necessarily impact the current abortion rate. Care, love and showing the mother honest options for keeping her baby might be the way to change the abortion rate. But then love really the way to change world as Jesus told us.
Third … Aliasmoi said:
A woman who already has two children under the age of five – her husband has run off with another woman. She finds out he hasn’t been paying the mortgage for months, he’s also cleaned out the bank accounts. She’s got no job. She’s got no money. She has no family she can turn to. She isn’t religious, so she has no faith community to turn to. Though let’s be honest, most churches would just SAY they’re going to pray for her and through $20 her way every once in awhile. She’s got two small children she needs to figure out how to feed and shelter, and on top of it all she’s pregnant.
I don’t feel like I can judge that woman since I’ve never been in that position. When I’m honest about it, I’m not sure what I would do if I were in that position. Is this situation a tragedy? Absolutely. Is it murder? I really don’t think so.
Well … whether or not it’s murder does not depend on the circumstances of the abortion. It depends on when the fetus is declared an independent life. Or upon when you or I believe it to be a life. If we believe that all abortions are murder, then this circumstance is still murder, but we might also say that these are exigent circumstances. OTOH … it’s an excellent opportunity for a congregation or group of Christians to form a safe haven for the mother to raise her growing family in. It would challenge everyone, but Jesus never told us this path was easy, just that it was narrow and straight.
“Republicans could give a rat’s hind-parts about abortion or gay marriage. They just use it to trick the so-called Christian right into throwing in their lot with them while they laugh up their sleeves at how gullible you all are.”
True.
And the Democrats don’t really care about ending poverty but they use it to buy votes from their side. We’ve had the “Great Society” for 40 years and FDR’s plans for 75 and yet the poverty rate has stayed STATIC for the last 40 years.
I think it was Rich Mullins who said something to the effect that if each person is wicked, then why do we consider a government of wicked people elected by a millions of wicked people to be good? The simple fact of the matter is BOTH parties have no interest in you beyond your vote every two years.
This also proves one thing: to all those who are waiting for the government to do something: stop abortion, feed the hungry, etc…go do what Jesus did. DO IT YOURSELF!! Join A CPC, give to a food bank and a soup kitchen, heck start a garden and donate the results. Jesus said for you (and me) to do it, not wait for Ceasar to. Relying on the government will only end badly.
DD
Sonja –
This is FOCA in a nutshell, from Wikipedia:
“The Freedom of Choice Act (H.R. 1964/S. 1173) is a bill in the 110th United States Congress which “declares that it is the policy of the United States that every woman has the fundamental right to choose to bear a child; terminate a pregnancy prior to fetal viability; or terminate a pregnancy after viability when necessary to protect her life or her health.
Prohibits a federal, state, or local governmental entity from denying or interfering with a woman’s right to exercise such choices; or discriminating against the exercise of those rights in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information. Provides that such prohibition shall apply retroactively.”
There will be no state recourse to FOCA. States will NOT have the right to make their own laws or restrict abortion in any way. It will be the end of the pro-life movement, for all intents and purposes. It will mean that tax dollars will pay for abortions, and those who have a moral problem with this can get stuffed. It means that medical facilities that do not wish to provide abortions can get stuffed. It will probably mean that people who want to become OBGYN’s but do not wish to perform abortions can get stuffed.
If none of this concerns you, fine. But please let’s not deceive ourselves.
Tell you what. Let’s strike down all the laws regarding theft. Laws don’t make people good, and the government has no business trying to legislate morality. If you care about theft, give your money and goods away to people so that they are not forced to steal from others to get what they need or want.
If this sort of argument seems ridiculous and unhinged to you when applied to theft, but reasonable when applied to abortion, then I guess what you’re really saying is that property rights are more important and worthy of protection than are the lives of unborn children. God bless America.
love this thread. WWOD, the lib goes to church and says, O Lord, it’s hard to be humble, when I am perfect in every way; and I can’t bear to look in the mirror, cause I get better looking each day.
The libs and probably most of those who post on this thread have spent eight years cra–ing on Bush. They have done everything they could to destroy the man, his presidency and this country. Me personally, I hope the great and all powerful O does well because I live in this country. I don’t like him, I am one of those poor igrant types.
But I gotta admit, there is a place in my heart where, I will take a bit of pleasure every time he screws up, at every joke made about him, every photoshop that shows him up.
dkmonroe …
I think you need to revisit a good civics course. As well as a good course in rhetoric.
Peace unto you my sibling in Christ.
Sonja,
Please, enlighten me. Tell me where what I said is wrong.
I don’t like his policies and I did not vote for him but Barack Obama is still my president and I’ll pray for his well being. Also he is an authentically charming, clever, eloquent and inspiring. These are gifts from God and it would be impious to deny them. I pray our new president will use those gifts for good and I’ll pray for his conversion, not because I believe he is Muslim , but because I believe anyone who defends abortion needs conversion because they see evil and call it good.
I take it that none of you would form an opinion on Jesus based solely on what others have said about him. Of course not, you’d read and meditate over what he has said about himself. BTW, I imagine all of you would want to hold others to that standard if they were making judgements about you.
So I ask all of you- How many of you have read Obama’s words about himself- and meditated on them; and how many of you are getting you information from other than 1st person accounts?
It’s far, far easier and comforting to just keep on repeating whatever bogeyman-like falsehoods people have about Obama (he’s the Antichrist, he’s a Muslim, he’s not a “real American”, he hates God, he loves Microsoft because he has a Zune*) than it is to actually try to get to know what Obama’s really like by reading what he’s said.
It’s the same for any group of people who extremist Christians enjoy vilifying – gays/lesbians, atheists, Muslims, Catholics…the list goes on.
Loving people who fall outside of your general sphere of assumptions on “acceptability” is extremely difficult, because it not only pushes people outside of their comfort zone, but it also challenges peoples’ assertions about their faith and the world around them. Which, sadly, is what a lot of Christians simply don’t want to do.
*That last one was a bit of a gag, really. I’m just waiting for the story about iPod fans being up in arms over that…
dkmonroe,
If you would rather legislate against abortion than actually going out, giving your time and money to help the people involved then maybe Power means more than the commandments of Jesus: Love your neighbor. I am amused that your gut instinct is government intervention in moral areas not getting involved yourself. It’s so much easier to care if you let someone else do the work, isn’t it?
Saying I want individuals to do the work that needs done in no way implies that I endorse the bad deeds. However, any one who has studied history knows that give the government enough power and control and people DIE EN MASSE. I’d much rather donate to a medical charity or to a food bank or to a CPC than to give the corrupt government MORE POWER.
Reagan said it best: “The government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take it all away.”
DD