And on the topic of language. What is sinful speech? The reason I ask is because, if I look (and think) lustfully at a woman, then I have committed adultery in my heart. How is thinking “bull****” any different than saying it?

Now, my language does come from my heart, for the most part. And rarely, if ever, do I point my cussing at anyone or people in particular.

I take issue with the viewpoint that pastors need to be better than anyone else in the congregation. We all have sin areas and struggles of various kinds. But when we put the pastor on the pedestal, we forget that the taller the pedestal, the longer a fall (and more injury) is the result.

Putting the pastor on the pedestal and even distancing him from the rest of the flock (note: he’s still a part of the flock) causes major dissociation between him and the congregation. And it’s difficult to tell who is responsible for that – the pastor, who may have just joined up with the congregation in the last few years and really hasn’t been included and accepted beyond having him and his wife over for dinner, or the general population / congregation of the body.

I don’t want someone to turn on their “Game Face” for Sunday or any other time when they have to be “Christian.” I want raw, real, life. Tell me what you’re thinking kind of conversation. Not candy-coated, lukewarm (Jesus is gonna spit that out!) Christianity that is the shallow end. And if the pastor cusses… who cares? Most of the people who tend to care let more than 1 word slip out of their mouths. The difference is they don’t get caught.

It happens in public, I think people have the right to comment on it. Is anyone perfect? No. That isn’t the issue. Could we toss a stone at everyone, including ourselves. Of course. But again not the issue. Gossip’s will be gossip and there will always be people wanting to stir up trouble and controversy. I just feel like Mark should be pro-active in trying to put the kibosh on as much of that as he can.

And the elder thing, that two people have alluded to, really did happen. People were removed, and the elders are hand picked. I won’t debate that here, but, as IM pointed out, at the end of the day, the elders are responsible. And if MD has chosen to place a bunch of “yes men” in his corner, in the end it won’t just be MD that suffers, but those in his congregation.

CJ Mahaney has no moral authority. Check out the SGM survivors site. Especially about how SGM churches treat sexual perverts and their victims. CJ is a fraud who started a cult.

Driscoll got rid of the elders who disagreed with him. Remember? He threatened to go ‘Old Testament’ on them.

And Driscoll has repented over the past few years and then gets worse.

Nobody can. Not without Enzyte or tetanospasmin in their bloodstream.

P.S. Frank: Maybe you Baptists have been teetotal for too long. You sound like you need to pour yourself a stiff one and chill out.

The problem is that you are most surely aware of the team sport aspect, but that isn’t what motivates YOU personally in this dialog. I agree with that. But does it have to do with what has been offered me via email today? The four post indictment from a major preacher? The ridiculous British You tube material of Driscoll saying he teaches that Jesus was a pervert?

Sorry. I’d like to be more like Osteen, but I can’t smile that much.

peace

ms

I’m troubled, and saddened, and deeply concerned that you think there’s some kind of team sport happening in much of the criticism of MD.

Did some of that happen at the SBC? Yes. It’s happening in Missouri right now. That stuff is like watching Eddie Haskell frame the Beev for the cookies he ate — except not funny.

But you yourself admit the language stuff we’re on about here is out of line — and for the sake of the on-going debate I have reduced it to one specific incident only. But you yourself have trouble with his riffs on manhood; you have trouble with his essentially-flip treatment of women. We could make a laundry list of his offenses, from scatology to inuendo. But making the laundry list doesn’t improve the dialog.

The straight question we have to answer, then, is this: should we be not ashamed (let alone proud of ourselves) when we make a joke about masturbation on national television? If we can answer that question, and solve that problem vis. the position of a pastor before the nation and not just some guy talking on his cell phone in the mall, then the rest of the issues all simply fall into place.

First of all, your affirmation that he “repents all the time” is a little shakey. Link to two sermons or blog posts where he says something more specific than the generic “I’m a sinner” or one of its cognates.

But second of all, isn’t it odd that for all the repenting, he’s still telling crude jokes from his books written 3 and 4 years ago? If I repent of shouting at my wife in public, and then a couple of weeks later in a different place shout at my wife in public, have I really repented? Doesn’t repentence mean to do war with your sin and to flee from it — not to return to it like a dog to its vomit?

The plea that Mark Driscoll has repented publicly doesn’t stand up to the first pass, imo. I look forward to your evidence that I am mistaken.

Why didn’t Paul use that line of reasoning with Titus who was sent to Crete — the home of men who were, in Paul’s words, vile beasts? Why was Paul careful to tell Titus exactly the opposite of what you suggest we should think of Mark Driscoll’s behavior?