UPDATE: Piper “clarifies” his tornado comments by referring to his bout with prostate cancer. The message of every event is repentance: “That is the message of every calamity (Luke 13:1-5). And every sunny day (Romans 2:4).” It seems to me we are simply not going to get past the issue of how we can say, as God’s word, that a specific event has a specific, divinely connected, design that I can speak to you: THIS happened so that you would do THIS. As opposed to THIS happened, you SHOULD do THIS, but I can’t say the two things are connected causally. Cause of tornado = message or Cause of tornado = weather systems/ Application of tornado in Christian worldview = repent, etc.

An event has an application, and God has a Word, but making the various aspects of weather in a particular place a clear word from God is raising a human pastoral application up to the level where all the problems we’ve discussed become real problems for many people. Such connections will cause many to stumble in their faith as they wonder “what was God’s Word to me in taking my child? Why did he have to speak that way instead of another way?” Piper clearly, WILL answer that question for suffering people out of his high views of God ordering all that comes to pass. Many other Christians will not. It’s the difference between a pastor saying, “in the tornado, I see a lesson” and saying “in the tornado, God is saying to you.” There’s a significance difference between these two expressions. I, and many others, frequently call to mind the lessons of providence, but they are the connections we see, not the connections God has made absolute. “The tornado caused me to think about God” and “God sent the tornado to Minneapolis so I would think about God” are simply two pastorally different statements. I’d suggest that what I can say about my house fire (or Piper can say about his cancer) and what I can say about Minneapolis’s tornado are two very different things on the level of using my interpretation of events as God’s Word.

In my conception of pastoral care, there are things you can think and believe, and then there are things you say at particular times. In the neo-natal ICU, when a child is about to die, people are making these connections: God is punishing them, God isn’t there, God is wanting something from them, etc. I believe pastoral care doesn’t tell people why that tornado is in the ICU. It humbly clarifies what we know about God from Jesus and the Gospel. I’m not going to say “this happened for the glory of God” THEN. I’m going to lament THEN. I’m going to take the time to see death for the enemy that it is, not say this is God. I’m going to Romans 8:28, etc LATER. If your first word to those parents is God’s sovereign ordering of all things so they will repent, I don’t think you’ve spoken a false word, but in the context, you’ve spoken a word that makes it more difficult to trust God. Jesus wept even when he’d said Lazurus’s death was for the glory of God. Some believe the highest expression of God’s sovereignty in the midst of tornadoes is the best pastoral and evangelistic word at that moment. It’s a legitimate disagreement, and no one should be embarrassed for having it. [Continue reading]

UPDATE: Greg Boyd on Piper’s tornado. BTW, my commendations on excellent behavior by all in the comment thread.

UPDATE: From long, but right on point: The Islamization of Christianty by Udo Middleman.

UPDATE: Some of my own thoughts on the ‘04 Tsunami. Also, Halden Doerge: Why John Piper is Dangerous. I first caught the attention of the Reformation Police when I blogged about Paul Proctor’s announcement that God killed emerging pastor Kyle Lake. This was repeated by some bloggers that would surprise you.

UPDATE: Baptist Press takes a break from vilifying Piper’s association with Mark Driscoll to reprint his tornado theology.

Jerry Falwell said that 9-11 was God’s judgment on gays, feminists, abortionists and other sinners. (He later apologized.)

Pat Robertson has repeatedly told us that hurricanes are God’s judgments on the east coast.

More than a few preachers have said that Hurricane Katrina was God’s judgment on New Orleans. Which is apparently why it almost destroyed New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and left the French Quarter in place.

John Piper has chimed in before on what was going on when the Interstate bridge in Minneapolis collapsed.

Now Piper has written that a tornado in Minneapolis was a warning to liberal Lutherans about to vote on issues related to gay clergy. Here’s Pastor Piper’s original post.

When I was 13, I fell off my bicycle and busted a tooth. I won’t tell you what I was doing back in those days, but I got the message.

After you read 1 Kings 19:9-13 and David Sessions at Patrol Magazine, you can comment.

The open mic question of the day: How would you characterize this kind of comment? A bit excessive, but harmless? Arrogantly outside the lines of what any Christian ought to say in the aftermath of a serious or tragic event? Confused, but sincere? Proof that Job’s friends (“I know why it happened! I know!! Call on me!! I know!!) and not Job’s repentance (Job 42:1-6 “I’m shutting up”) are really the model for theology in the reformed camp?

UPDATE II: And now the announcement is that this thread means I believe all theology is equally true. See, I 1) shouldn’t be letting you people tell your stories at all. It’s rejoicing in sin. 2) I should be preaching to all of you because right belief is the answer to everything. 3) and then I should be rejoicing that you all never return to this site again. But at least I witnessed to you.

God forbid that we act like people actually matter. Lord, save us from having to listen to someone’s pain. Just SHUT UP and SHOW ME YOUR CONFESSION. Right?

I’m looking for stories; stories of how relationships were changed for the worse because of theology.
I want commenters to tell- briefly- their stories of how theology caused stress, conflict, change, separation and distance in relationships with spouses, family members, parents, friends, co-workers and/or fellow Christians.

I’m not interested in changes from Christian to atheist, etc. Or in announcing you were gay. I want to know how someone becoming Calvinist changed your relationship. How did someone’s charismatic practices cause rejection? How did your family change their treatment of you when you left the Baptist denomination and became Orthodox? How does a creationist treat a Christian co-worker who is an evolutionist? How did your move to or from Catholicism affect your marriage? Are there people who stopped speaking to you or started evangelizing you when you changed your theology or practice?

That’s the sort of stories I’m looking for. With 40% of Americans changing religions and many moving to and from various theological positions, there’s bound to be a lot of these. Share them. Briefly. In the comments.

An atheist visits Planetshakers Church for the big show.

This may be the best discussion starter you’ll see this year. If you want to take a measure of how evangelicals see their world, hand them this description of an atheist’s visit to a high-powered Australian megachurch. Read. Ask for responses. Take notes.

I’ll be quite honest with anyone: In my limited opinion, this appears to me to be the death throes of any substantial evangelical Christianity. The atheistic author doesn’t leave me any hints that the Gospel showed up (and maybe it did.) The stumbling block of the cross? Maybe it’s there and atheists don’t hear it. I’ve never been to Planetshakers, so I don’t know. I can’t judge the Gospel proclamation from this distance. I will say I don’t believe atheists are stupid. If Jared Wilson were preaching, the atheist would have been offended by his constant focus on Jesus. [Continue reading]

Today’s iMonk Cafe open mic question may pertain more to preachers, but also to those who read sermons, hear them, read blogs, books, etc. Anyone who hears the Word handled.

Have you ever heard a text that was meant to proclaim the Gospel- the good news of what GOD has done- turned into LAW? What you had to do?

So here’s today’s question: “What are some examples you’ve heard or read of Good News Gospel texts in scripture being turned into lessons, examples, moralism, advice, demands, guilt trips, shouldas and ought tos, in other words, LAW?

Also, my occasional post at the Steve Brown, Etc guest room is up. It’s called “Sometimes I don’t like any of the answers.”

I put forward the following DESCRIPTIVE and DIAGNOSTIC proposition, not to get up in someone’s face or assert superiority, but to understand things that are:

“It appears that the HIGHER the view of the church, the clergy and the administration of the sacraments (not the sacraments themselves, but the ADMINISTRATION of them), the LOWER the view and practice of church planting. Why is this? The great challenge to the mainline and Reformation churches is finding ways to understand and overcome this situation.”

I will administer assertively. I am NOT inviting a comparative sacramentalism debate. I am challenging churches whose ecclesiology is not “entrepreneurial” to assess and suggest how they can aggressively start new work that will become new church plants in the future. I will NOT post comments questioning the value of church plants. That is assumed.

I am particularly interested in how this situation is overcome in other contexts, such as in India or Africa.

Noel, Ryan and I were talking tonight about the fact that while a few middle/high school girls read, almost no middle/high school boys read.

My dad died almost 15 years ago. He enjoyed Zane Grey and Tarzan. There was a time the John Carter of Mars books were popular. Also the Hardy Boys. Sherlock Holmes. I read a lot sports as a kid. Times have changed.

Boys today read manga and comics, if they read at all. A few read Poe and Tolkien. When in college, Sci-fi and action/military books may find an audience.

So what is out there, contemporary and classic, that we could suggest or assign to middle/high school boys? (Not Christians in an advanced environment. Just regular boys.)

So Evangelicals….what will be your version?

Your Christian friend has been staying up late on the internet, listening to Christian short wave and now comes up with a collection of completely bizarre, totally mythological pieces of anti-factual, conspiratorial nonsense—”They drilled a hole to hell,”….”Obama is a Muslim”…..”NASA has proven the sun stands still”….”9-11 was prophesied in Ezekiel”….”Christianity is going to be illegal by the next election.”

What do you do?

Do you correct them?
Do you leave it alone?
Do you write down Snopes.com on a card and give it to them?
Do you laugh? Weep?
Do you top it with a stranger story?

What is the right response to ignorance, factual error and sweeping untruths?

For the sake of this question, I’m going to make an unsafe assumption: that we all have a strong commitment to the application of grace in everyday life.

While all of us who love grace want to apply it to all of our relationships, we have to admit that in some relationships, we have to use law in order to fulfill the responsibilities we have in various roles of authority.

How does a parent, a teacher, an employer, law enforcement officer or a person otherwise charged with the use of authority and law live out and apply a Biblical commitment to grace in relationships?

I want to be gracious to my students, and I’m willing to be abused, but my responsibilities as a teacher require me to use law in order to maintain order and fulfill the requirements of a classroom process.

Is the answer an “either/or” between law and grace or a use of law in such a way that grace is seen even more clearly?

I’m especially interested in the answers of those who must sometimes be the “enforcer” or rules and policies.

My last post has stirred up some, uh….”interesting” commentary and email. To the point: in the view of some people, evangelism of teenagers is abusive and unethical. Since I’m a preacher who preaches the Gospel to teenagers with an appeal for their conversion, I’m engaged in abusive behavior.

This especially seems to to apply, to some, to the cases of those who are stated unbelievers or atheists. If I know that is their position, then to evangelize at all is to be disrespectful and manipulative. These young people should not have to hear Christian appeals for conversion and it is entirely appropriate to see this kind of activity as unethical pressure tactics on those least able to resist.

These claims hit close to home. I’ve devoted most of my life to evangelizing students, and I am not bashful about it. That said, I am just as passionate to reject all unethical methods, pressure tactics and manipulation. Scripture, in fact, commands me to abandon and oppose any underhanded or unethical use of the Gospel. I am told to serve and love others in Jesus’ name, and to proclaim/teach the Gospel with faith and submission to Christ at the center. I am given specific instructions to honor God in evangelism by leaving matters of the heart and conscience to him. My calling is to love, communicate and relate. I am an incarnational proclaimer of the Good News. I can’t manipulate and represent Jesus. I also can’t equivocate and represent Jesus. [Continue reading]

This particular open thread is going to be a bit unusual.

I am limiting participation to only those readers who are either trained in some area of the sciences or currently work in a science related field (either teaching or practice.)

This thread is for this question: How have you resolved the tensions in your own life and thinking between science and your faith? What has been your journey? What was particularly significant in that journey?

I’m especially interested in those who were brought up in conservative Christian environments with typical conservative assumptions about the Bible.

Please keep “sideline comments” out of this thread.

A friend and I were swapping stories about the amazing, crazy, hilarious, rude, embarrassing, you-can’t-make-this-stuff-up bad behavior of some children in church. Also, we tossed in a few stories about the adults who bring them and often make things much worse.

We thought you might have some stories to share. I prefer bad behavior stories that make the entire audience wince, but will take whatever you have.

No cute stories please. I want the dark side. This is oral history. Call the Smithsonian.

You Catholics should win this thread easily. With no nurseries, you already have the table set for excitement.

It appears to me that the most misunderstood of the solas is “sola deo Gloria.” I’m especially interested in the Catholic take that God “shares” his glory with the saints.

Do reformation Christians really believe that “glory” belongs to God alone? Or do we, like our Catholic friends, believe that God shares his glory with those who are “glorified?” What is the relationship between the “sola” glory of God and a “glorious” anything else? (Like the universe, for example?)

Question: What does it mean to say “Glory to God alone?” And how do we practice it?

Prosperity Gospel: Yes or No?

You decide. Here is a collection of statements, products, ministries, etc. Some of them are the Prosperity “Gospel” while some are not.

What do you think? [Continue reading]