The T confronts me first with my own depravity, then calls for compassion to others. Thanks for tackling a difficult subject, and saying some things that needed to be said.

Your post reminded me of one of my favorite Hasidic stories:

Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov once encountered a preacher who was forever berating his listeners for their sins. In the most graphic terms he would describe the nature of the evil in the heart of man and the terrible punishments in store for his sinful audience.

“Tell me’,’ the Baal Shem Tov asked the preacher, “how do you know so much about evil, considering that you have never tasted sin yourself?”

The preacher was puzzled. “How do you know that I haven’t sinned?”

“But my dear friend, I am sure you would have discussed your own sins, if you had any, before recounting the sins of others.”

(btw, as input to unversalism discussion, in Judaism Gehenna is rather more like the RCC purgatory. You can easily find 1st century and earlier references to it, and Jesus’ listeners would have understood his references to it in that context. But it was not uncommon to speak of those who would not ascend from Gehenna for grave sins. Most often this is hyperbole and noted as such in further commentaries, but other times it may be meant literally – as with people like Haman.)

May I ask how the figurative interpretation of such verses that allude to an eternal hell can yield a view that it is not objectively eternal? I think most would agree that the parables are figurative, but they are obviously trying to communicate a point. How does one extract the idea of finite punishment for the purposes of purification from language of eternal destinations?

You are assuming that Jesus is not using an analogy when He calls hell “gehenna” by using garbage dump imagery.

Jesus teachings about the nature of hell are not consistent with pure garbage dump analogy. Garbage dumps aren’t where “souls” are thrown by God if you don’t fear Him. Even in garbage dumps the worms die, and the fire are quenched by rain. etc. etc.

Literal=things mean what they say
Figurative=things mean what they say (you just say them differently)

Analogy, hyperbole, and other figurative methods of communicating are at the end of the day to be taken literally.

Jesus says “don’t lust” = literal
Jesus says “cut off your hand, gouge out your eye” = figurative, but, does that mean Jesus is saying nothing? No, He is saying “don’t lust” literally…in a figurative way. All communication ends at literalism, unless it is meaningless. Parables are full of imagery, but they must end at a literal truth or what are they containing? Nonsense?

The literal figurative distinction is overplayed by liberal-leaning theologians. In the end its a smoke screen for not dealing with the implications of a text.

John H,

At the church I attend, total depravity is never just turned on other people. Most preachers I know who believe it turn it on themselves more than they do others. You will hear my own pastor saying, “How can you trust your heart? How can you trust yourself? How can you not look at your own depravity, and be compelled to run to Christ and trust Him since we are such shaky ground to stand on.” And as He’s preaching, asking himself these questions, and asking Christians these questions.

If they truly believed in “total depravity”, and recognised that (like charity) total depravity begins at home , then I don’t think they could preach on that topic in terms of hatred directed against “the lost”. They’d preach an anguished love for the lost, and a hatred of the depravity still found within their own hearts and in their own lives.

1)It sounds like you think that parables are to be taken literally. I don’t. I don’t think Jesus did either.

2)I never said the parables were an analogy and I never said I didn’t believe in a literal heaven or hell. It sounds like my ideas of hell are different than yours. I think it would be useful for you to study the history of the word hell and how it is used in the bible. A good starting point would be Randy Klassen’s book that I referenced in my earlier post.

The great thing about being a universalist is that I don’t feel compelled to persuade anyone that what they believe is wrong and that they should think exactly like I do. I simply view us as fellow travellers on the same path. It would be boring if everyone thought, believed, and taught exactly the same thing. Talk about total depravity!

Though I am a universalist, that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe that some people will be punished in the afterlife. I believe that punishment is for a limited amount of time and has a specific purpose. That purpose is to purify someone so in the end they can be saved. To punish someone without end and without some final purpose is abhorrent to me. I would like to add that I don’t think that parables are to be taken literally but are to be used for instructive purposes to make a point.

K.W. Leslie,

I don’t believe Jesus or the apostles lied about anything. As I said in the previous paragraph I believe some people will be punished in the afterlife but to the end that they will be saved. Do you really think that in the afterlife when someone is face to face with the living God that they would not believe in Him and choose what’s best for them. I don’t think they will have to be brainwashed or reprogrammed.

Anna,

I have read several of Peter Kreeft’s books and didn’t care that much for his writing. His writing seems rather obscure and he tends to pontificate a lot. He takes 10 pages to say what could be said in a single paragraph.

Patrick Kyle,

You said:

“You have to be disingenuous with what the Scriptures teach to come up with Universalism,and resort to an outside line of reasoning that distorts or entirely ignores various passages of Scripture. I understand that many Christians hold loosely to the Bible or even reject parts of it; that is a matter of conscience. For those of us who hold to the authority and veracity of the entire Bible, eternal separation from God for those who reject Him is undeniable.”

I disagree. I don’t believe that you have to be disingenuous or use some weird type of reasoning to believe in universalism. My guess is that you haven’t read any good books about Christian universalism or studied what we believe.

Probably the best book on Christian universalism that I have read is “The Inescapable Love of God” by Thomas Talbott. The best book on hell and the doctrine of eternal torment that I have read is “What Does The Bible Really Say About Hell: Wrestling With The Traditional View” by Randy Klassen. http://www.tentmaker.org is a wonderful Christian universalist site if anyone is interested in learning more about Christian universalism.

Finally, I would like to address Internet Monk’s original question and message; Can You Give A Tulip to the Hurting? My answer is: Why would you? The us versus them mentality in that preacher’s message is so pervasive in the church today that it makes me wonder if anyone would be attracted or even persuaded to become a Christian. What rational person would after hearing that?

It is so easy to demonize “them” and make “them” out to be the worst people in the world. Isn’t that how leaders in the past have convinced some people to commit great atrocities. “They” can’t be personalized, so it’s okay to say terrible things about “them” or demonize “them” or make “them” out to be inhuman savages that don’t deserve your mercy or compassion or forgiveness, much less God’s. No, “they” couldn’t be your brother or sister or father or mother. No, “they” reject God and hate God and deserve to be punished forever and ever and ever. “They” truly deserve whatever punishment they get.

Imagine sitting in a church pew for the first time in months or maybe years and that’s what you hear followed by an alter call. Why wouldn’t anyone want to be a Christian after hearing that about themselves? Why, it defies my understanding!

I believe in Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit and in presenting the whole story of the Gospel, but I wish some preacher’s would really hear themselves and get a clue. I hope God extends His mercy to all those who can’t seem to find it in their “Christian” hearts to extend that same mercy to those who are hurting and in need.

Grace and mercy without minimising sin.

acts 10- cornelius ,a devout man and one WHO FEARED GOD with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always…

your prayers and your4 alms have come up for a memorial before God. now send me Peter because he believes in the hebrew version of TULIP and he is about to get his eyes opend.

Peter later understands that God is no respectore of persons but knows all that fear Him.