Had to add one more thing though….. what would be nice is if folks on the creation side would have people scientifically knowledgable on the issues so that they can debate in a way such that they don’t look like ignorant fools or be a mouthpiece to spew talking points from a group like the lady in the second interview above. There’s plenty of good solid things to debate from the creation side there’s just not been well educated, knowledgeable people to do it – if there was there would probably be more respect for the position than there is. I suppose if we approached creation from a scientific standpoint like so many have on evolution we might just have something to say and I dare say if that were the case we probably trash a good part of evolution in the process.

Time to think about where you are versus where the rest of the world is. If you want to stay in the 14th century, by all means go ahead, but keep your ideas to yourself and don’t indoctrinate my child. My son learns truth, not myth.

Really, Christian fundamentalists go halfway anyway. Despite my contempt for them, at least Moslem fundamentalists live all they believe. They kill adulterers and cut off hands for stealing. If you’re going in, go all in or not at all, fundamentalist Christians. No cell phones, supermarkets, autos, computers, airplanes or TVs in any Bible I’ve ever read.

If this is true, then the account of the creation of earth and man in the Book of Genesis also must be true.

Exactly. And the over 67 passages that declare that the Earth is fixed, and that the Sun, Moon and stars rotate around it (Josh 10:12-13, 1 Chron 16:30, Isaiah 48:13, Hab 3:11, and many more. And that the shape of the Sky and heavens is a dome (Gen 1:6-8). And that this firmament has windows behind which are waters (Gen 1:6-7, Ps 148:4, Jer 10:13, etc.).

But if I don’t believe what is stated in the Book of Genesis, how can I believe what is written in the rest of the Bible?

Not only the book of Genesis, but all of the others books, too. All of which consistently teach that the Earth is immobile and that the celestial bodies really move around it.

And if I can’t believe what is written in the rest of the Bible, where does my faith come from?

This is exactly right. And the Bible teaches a very clear cosmology which is incompatible with with the Copernican heresy of heliocentrism and a moving Earth. And, I should add, that all public schools are required by law to teach this Copernican-Galilean humanist theory and we are FORCED to support it with our taxes. It’s an outrage. It’s totalitarian. Teach the controversy.

What I can’t figure out is why Ken Ham and AiG teach PART of Genesis as the truth, but get all wishy-washy when it comes to the arrangement and shape of the cosmos, which is ALSO in Genesis 1 (and in lots of other scriptural passages).

And if I don’t know where my faith comes from, why should I go to church?

Indeed. If the physical cosmology of the Bible isn’t true, why should I go to church?

If young-earth creationism is “useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,” then so is geocentrism. It’s too bad YECs have such a low view of Scripture that they adopt liberalistic, “it’s just appearances” (i.e., it isn’t true) interpretations of passages that clearly teach that the Earth really is the literal fixed center of Creation together with the rest of biblical cosmology.

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.” 2 Timothy 3:16

If this is true, then the account of the creation of earth and man in the Book of Genesis also must be true. But if I don’t believe what is stated in the Book of Genesis, how can I believe what is written in the rest of the Bible? And if I can’t believe what is written in the rest of the Bible, where does my faith come from? And if I don’t know where my faith comes from, why should I go to church?

Christians are allowing themselves to be conned. There is zero evidence to support darwinian evolution. Natural selection is good science that is extrapolated to prove a religous idea. Zero evidence of “primordial slime”. Zero fossil evidence to support gradual change. Dawkins now says DNA. DNA supports creationism because it is language + matter. Sorry, how did the language evolve? And we now know that cells are irreducibley complex. There has not been a single scientific paper written on how cells evolve. Not one. How did the eye evolve? How about feathers? The whole concept of darwinism is idiotic.

Christians are conned by this great delusion of so-called “science” of secular humanists. After 11 years of cooling they still tell us the planet is warming and the Pope, the Orthodox Patriarch, and Rick Warren all believe it and their flocks follow them. Christians aren’t against science. That is a big lie. We are against bad science that is used to distort the minds of children into thinking that people are no different from rocks, trees, birds, and spiders. The public schools have the minds of your children (not mine, I home schooled, but I was still FORCED to pay for the secualr humanist public school) for 5 days a week plus homework on the weekends. Then you give them an hour at church. Hmmmm….I wonder what will have the greatest influence?

As for the Creation Museum. It’s great. Ken Ham gives occasional lectures. You can skip those if you want to. You are not FORCED to pay for the museum or FORCED to listen to him. Heck, I am being FORCED to pay for a stupid Woodstock Museum. I don’t get what imonk’s hang-up with Christians witnessing in this way. Where is the extension of Grace?

There is a vast difference between responsible home-schooling and the type that produces those who cannot compete in the ‘real’ world.
The goals of the extemists Christian far-right are not to equip their young for competition with those who attend mainline universities. And the results are there to prove it.
The percentage of hom e schooling done by extremists may be small, but it is growing. The extremists decry public education. And their children are prepared for an ‘alternate’ reality from the one that they would compete with at a major university. They won’t be able to function in the mileu of open exploration and debate found at the university level.
We are talking about the far-right extemists here, as the group that I take issue with, are we not? If we are not, then our conversation is not ‘on the same page’.
I have no quarrel with responsible home-schooling. I admire the parents who do it and who sacrifice much to give their children a fine academic preparation. They are to be commended.

JoeA,

I stated in the previous posts with Joel that I do not take these issues to be salvation critical. No one will spend eternity in heaven or hell based on how you believe on this or a host of other issues. What you do in terms of your relationship with Jesus will determine eternal destiny. I don’t see myself as a hard core fundamentalist – the previous posts with Joel was a dialogue between two people with different views on an issue and Joel has a better grasp of the scientific aspect where I choose a more “take it as it’s written” approach and I’m not as well versed as Joel and that’s fine as I learn things even when I don’t always agree.

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BTW Joel, it’s true there was no detail of process and I don’t know that it was needed since everything after the fall was pointing us to how it would be corrected in Christ’s coming and sacrafice – his death, burial and resurrection. I think it’s perfectly fine to be curious about the details of how and why and so forth – certianly Ken Ham has that interest as I do and as you do. Alot happened back at the beginning in creation and it would be neat to know all that and we will at some point and I have an idea that every last one of us will be quite suprised at the answers – we’ll all probably have some things right and others wrong. I think it’s very, very interesting topic for research and discovery. God isn’t “a scientist” as such but has knowledge of it and an infinate number of other things we don’t and will not know this side of heaven but I think one can conclude that physics, chemistry, genetics etc were involved in all this else how do you get from a state of perfection to the state of imperfection after the fall if some things were not altered – could the aging leading to death process be a change at the genetic level for example…… is there a difference in flesh and bone (Adam about Eve – “bone of my bones/flesh of my flesh” – no mention of blood as a part of the body until after the fall and later we have stated in the NT that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven…… Now don’t go nuts on me – I’m just putting this out as examples – things I wonder about and I may be totally wrong on it all but, I do think about things like this from time to time – it’s very interesting. In a body made to last for eternity would you need blood to sustain life? After the fall it was necessary for physical life – it would seem before the fall that may not have been necessary……. again, these are just thoughs – they’re not hard fact…… we just don’t know for sure and may not know, as I said, this side of heaven but it is very, very fascinating!

Well, this is my final post on this – it’s been interesting and I’ve enjoyed the dialogue/discussion…… always interesting here! Thanks guys – God bless!!!