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	<title>Comments on: Bryan Cross Interview (Part 3): Anglicans, Evangelicals, Convert Apologetics and Books</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-518020</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Your arguments are all fine and well, and I am in no position to judge your scholarship, but being a realist, I would just like to give a gentle reminder to all that arguments concerning the sacraments - on either side - are almost of necessity post-hoc justifications of positions already held.  Also, as far as I know, none of the sacramental Traditions believe in the salvific nature of the sacraments &lt;i&gt;to the exclusion of&lt;/i&gt; faith in Christ - they are part of the same package.

Much love,

Ben</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your arguments are all fine and well, and I am in no position to judge your scholarship, but being a realist, I would just like to give a gentle reminder to all that arguments concerning the sacraments &#8211; on either side &#8211; are almost of necessity post-hoc justifications of positions already held.  Also, as far as I know, none of the sacramental Traditions believe in the salvific nature of the sacraments <i>to the exclusion of</i> faith in Christ &#8211; they are part of the same package.</p>
<p>Much love,</p>
<p>Ben</p>
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		<title>By: RSS OrÂ Atom? &#124; GfCS</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-517999</link>
		<dc:creator>RSS OrÂ Atom? &#124; GfCS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4956#comment-517999</guid>
		<description>[...] Atom and ION graphÂ­ics into the livÂ­ingÂ roomRelated posts on conÂ­vertConÂ­vert PhoÂ­tos ToÂ PDFBryan Cross InterÂ­view (Part 3): AngliÂ­cans, EvanÂ­gelÂ­iÂ­cals, ConÂ­vert â€¦Related on Amazon:Atom: JourÂ­ney Across the SubÂ­atomic CosÂ­mos (TruÂ­man TalÂ­ley)Atom: A [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Atom and ION graphÂ­ics into the livÂ­ingÂ roomRelated posts on conÂ­vertConÂ­vert PhoÂ­tos ToÂ PDFBryan Cross InterÂ­view (Part 3): AngliÂ­cans, EvanÂ­gelÂ­iÂ­cals, ConÂ­vert â€¦Related on Amazon:Atom: JourÂ­ney Across the SubÂ­atomic CosÂ­mos (TruÂ­man TalÂ­ley)Atom: A [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Catholic Idolatry &#171; Endued</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-517872</link>
		<dc:creator>Catholic Idolatry &#171; Endued</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 07:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] idolatry by appealing to John of Damascus, we have an opposite example in the Internet Monkâ€™s interview with Bryan Cross, someone who has made that plunge into idolatry. I donâ€™t know why these issues [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] idolatry by appealing to John of Damascus, we have an opposite example in the Internet Monkâ€™s interview with Bryan Cross, someone who has made that plunge into idolatry. I donâ€™t know why these issues [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Lynch</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-517622</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Lynch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4956#comment-517622</guid>
		<description>&quot;If Catholics want to bridge the divide theyâ€™re going to have to come to an understanding what the Reformation was truly all about&quot;

I think the thing that all converts accept in coming to the Catholic faith about the Protestant narrative of &#039;what the Reformation was truly about&#039; is its final inadequacy -  in all respects, leaving the universal, original instituted church is simply not the Good that not leaving it is, no matter the philosophical rationale or exigetical justifications on offer. 

All the ages of Catholic faith and its expressions don&#039;t sink or swim according to the criticism of one school of &#039;reformers&#039; - but inasmuch as the influence of the reformers were medicinal, the Catholic Church (but especially all of us as individual Catholic Christians) must not deny ourselves the best Protestant &#039;cures&#039; for our dis-eases, be they private or corporate - good preaching, simple prayers, a love of Scripture, a de-emphasis of our institutionalism in favor of unpretentious community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If Catholics want to bridge the divide theyâ€™re going to have to come to an understanding what the Reformation was truly all about&#8221;</p>
<p>I think the thing that all converts accept in coming to the Catholic faith about the Protestant narrative of &#8216;what the Reformation was truly about&#8217; is its final inadequacy &#8211;  in all respects, leaving the universal, original instituted church is simply not the Good that not leaving it is, no matter the philosophical rationale or exigetical justifications on offer. </p>
<p>All the ages of Catholic faith and its expressions don&#8217;t sink or swim according to the criticism of one school of &#8216;reformers&#8217; &#8211; but inasmuch as the influence of the reformers were medicinal, the Catholic Church (but especially all of us as individual Catholic Christians) must not deny ourselves the best Protestant &#8216;cures&#8217; for our dis-eases, be they private or corporate &#8211; good preaching, simple prayers, a love of Scripture, a de-emphasis of our institutionalism in favor of unpretentious community.</p>
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		<title>By: Alice</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-517595</link>
		<dc:creator>Alice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 04:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4956#comment-517595</guid>
		<description>Yes.  In general, Catholics accept other baptisms as long as they use the proper form and water.  I say in general because there are a few cases (such as the LDS) where the Catholic Church has ruled that the theology is so different that while they say the same words, they do not intend to do anything remotely like what we intend.  Sometimes it appears that Catholics rebaptize Protestants, but usually this is because the priest feels it necessary to do a conditional baptism &quot;just in case&quot;, either because there is no record of the baptism or because there is no way of knowing whether the trinitarian formula was used.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes.  In general, Catholics accept other baptisms as long as they use the proper form and water.  I say in general because there are a few cases (such as the LDS) where the Catholic Church has ruled that the theology is so different that while they say the same words, they do not intend to do anything remotely like what we intend.  Sometimes it appears that Catholics rebaptize Protestants, but usually this is because the priest feels it necessary to do a conditional baptism &#8220;just in case&#8221;, either because there is no record of the baptism or because there is no way of knowing whether the trinitarian formula was used.</p>
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		<title>By: EricW</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-517563</link>
		<dc:creator>EricW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4956#comment-517563</guid>
		<description>What About John 6?

Many Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians point to John 6 as clinching the argument for their belief that we are in fact to eat Jesus&#039; flesh and drink his blood, and that therefore partaking of the Eucharist at the Mass (Catholic) or Divine Liturgy (Orthodox), where the bread and wine by the power of the priest&#039;s words (Catholic) or by the power of the Holy Spirit through the priest&#039;s invocation (Orthodox) become Jesus&#039; actual body and blood (and soul and divinity, according to Roman Catholic teaching), is an essential aspect and practice of one&#039;s Christian life and salvation.

But is that what Jesus is actually saying and teaching in John 6?

There are nine verses in John 6 that have to do with eating Jesus&#039; flesh and/or drinking his blood, i.e., John 6:50-58. That&#039;s all. And for reasons I&#039;ll explain, it&#039;s not at all clear that in these verses Jesus is talking about actually eating his flesh or actually drinking his blood.

For example, when his disciples say that &quot;This is an intolerable saying&quot; (6:60), Jesus doesn&#039;t respond as if his talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood is what offended them. Rather, he responds as if his claim to have come down from heaven is the &quot;intolerable saying&quot; they&#039;re grumbling about (6:62). He then goes on to say that it&#039;s his words that are spirit and life, not his flesh and blood, and Peter then says that they will continue to follow him because Jesus has words of eternal life, not because he is going to give them his flesh and blood to eat and drink.

Those who believe in the bread and wine of the Mass or Eucharist necessarily becoming Jesus&#039; flesh and blood also argue that this is supported by Jesus switching from &quot;eat&quot; (Greek á¼ÏƒÎ¸Î¯Ï‰/á¼”Ï†Î±Î³Î¿Î½ (present/aorist tense)) to &quot;chew/munch&quot; (Greek Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰) at John 6:54, thus showing by his graphic language that he really was talking about really eating his real flesh. But this argument fails at multiple points, among them being:

1. The Gospel author&#039;s penchant for switching between semantically-similar words.
2. Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰ and á¼ÏƒÎ¸Î¯Ï‰/á¼”Ï†Î±Î³Î¿Î½ being interchangeable in Greek usage.
3. The Gospel author &lt;b&gt;always&lt;/b&gt; using Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰ for present tense forms of &quot;eat&quot; (and a present participle works best for the meaning &quot;he who eats&quot;; an aorist participle would mean &quot;he who ate&quot;) and &lt;b&gt;always&lt;/b&gt; using á¼”Ï†Î±Î³Î¿Î½ for non-present tense forms of &quot;eat.&quot; In fact, whereas Psalm 40:10 (41:10 Hebrew; 41:9 English) in the LXX reads á½ á¼ÏƒÎ¸Î¯Ï‰Î½, John 13:18 has Jesus, when quoting this Psalm, saying á½ Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰Î½ instead.

I.e., the author&#039;s switch from á¼”Ï†Î±Î³Î¿Î½ to Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰ can be explained without resorting to claims that this means that Jesus is really saying that we must really eat his real flesh and really drink his real blood.

Also, per John 6:57 (&quot;Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, likewise that person who eats me will also live because of me.&quot;), does Jesus actually eat his Father&#039;s flesh in order to live? That would be the implied correspondence between how Jesus lives and how his followers are to live if they actually have to eat his flesh in order to live. But if Jesus doesn&#039;t here mean that he actually eats his Father&#039;s flesh in order to live, how can it be argued that he means that his followers are actually to eat his flesh?

Jesus earlier said that his nourishment was to do his Father&#039;s will and accomplish his Father&#039;s work (á¼”ÏÎ³Î¿Î½) (John 4:34), not to eat his Father&#039;s flesh or drink his Father&#039;s blood. And when the ones in John 6 who followed Jesus asked him what they should do to do God&#039;s work (á¼”ÏÎ³Î¿Î½), Jesus replied that God&#039;s work (á¼”ÏÎ³Î¿Î½) was that they believe in him whom God had sent â€“ i.e., believe in Jesus (John 6:29).

As I said, there are only nine verses in the entirety of John&#039;s Gospel about &quot;eating&quot; Jesus&#039; flesh and &quot;drinking&quot; his blood, and they&#039;re all in one small part of one chapter of the Gospel, and they are in verses that could be omitted without changing the meaning or impact of what Jesus says in all that comes before or after them in the chapter. (Try it and see for yourself.)

Compare this to how many verses there are in the Gospel of John about coming to Jesus and believing in him in order to have eternal life. Count how many such verses or phrases there are in just John 6, and then count how many such verses or phrases there are in the rest of the Gospel of John.

&quot;But as many as received him, to those who believe in his name, he gave them the right to become children of God.&quot; (John 1:12)

&quot;These signs have been written about so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in his name.&quot; (John 20:31)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What About John 6?</p>
<p>Many Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians point to John 6 as clinching the argument for their belief that we are in fact to eat Jesus&#8217; flesh and drink his blood, and that therefore partaking of the Eucharist at the Mass (Catholic) or Divine Liturgy (Orthodox), where the bread and wine by the power of the priest&#8217;s words (Catholic) or by the power of the Holy Spirit through the priest&#8217;s invocation (Orthodox) become Jesus&#8217; actual body and blood (and soul and divinity, according to Roman Catholic teaching), is an essential aspect and practice of one&#8217;s Christian life and salvation.</p>
<p>But is that what Jesus is actually saying and teaching in John 6?</p>
<p>There are nine verses in John 6 that have to do with eating Jesus&#8217; flesh and/or drinking his blood, i.e., John 6:50-58. That&#8217;s all. And for reasons I&#8217;ll explain, it&#8217;s not at all clear that in these verses Jesus is talking about actually eating his flesh or actually drinking his blood.</p>
<p>For example, when his disciples say that &#8220;This is an intolerable saying&#8221; (6:60), Jesus doesn&#8217;t respond as if his talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood is what offended them. Rather, he responds as if his claim to have come down from heaven is the &#8220;intolerable saying&#8221; they&#8217;re grumbling about (6:62). He then goes on to say that it&#8217;s his words that are spirit and life, not his flesh and blood, and Peter then says that they will continue to follow him because Jesus has words of eternal life, not because he is going to give them his flesh and blood to eat and drink.</p>
<p>Those who believe in the bread and wine of the Mass or Eucharist necessarily becoming Jesus&#8217; flesh and blood also argue that this is supported by Jesus switching from &#8220;eat&#8221; (Greek á¼ÏƒÎ¸Î¯Ï‰/á¼”Ï†Î±Î³Î¿Î½ (present/aorist tense)) to &#8220;chew/munch&#8221; (Greek Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰) at John 6:54, thus showing by his graphic language that he really was talking about really eating his real flesh. But this argument fails at multiple points, among them being:</p>
<p>1. The Gospel author&#8217;s penchant for switching between semantically-similar words.<br />
2. Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰ and á¼ÏƒÎ¸Î¯Ï‰/á¼”Ï†Î±Î³Î¿Î½ being interchangeable in Greek usage.<br />
3. The Gospel author <b>always</b> using Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰ for present tense forms of &#8220;eat&#8221; (and a present participle works best for the meaning &#8220;he who eats&#8221;; an aorist participle would mean &#8220;he who ate&#8221;) and <b>always</b> using á¼”Ï†Î±Î³Î¿Î½ for non-present tense forms of &#8220;eat.&#8221; In fact, whereas Psalm 40:10 (41:10 Hebrew; 41:9 English) in the LXX reads á½ á¼ÏƒÎ¸Î¯Ï‰Î½, John 13:18 has Jesus, when quoting this Psalm, saying á½ Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰Î½ instead.</p>
<p>I.e., the author&#8217;s switch from á¼”Ï†Î±Î³Î¿Î½ to Ï„ÏÏŽÎ³Ï‰ can be explained without resorting to claims that this means that Jesus is really saying that we must really eat his real flesh and really drink his real blood.</p>
<p>Also, per John 6:57 (&#8220;Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, likewise that person who eats me will also live because of me.&#8221;), does Jesus actually eat his Father&#8217;s flesh in order to live? That would be the implied correspondence between how Jesus lives and how his followers are to live if they actually have to eat his flesh in order to live. But if Jesus doesn&#8217;t here mean that he actually eats his Father&#8217;s flesh in order to live, how can it be argued that he means that his followers are actually to eat his flesh?</p>
<p>Jesus earlier said that his nourishment was to do his Father&#8217;s will and accomplish his Father&#8217;s work (á¼”ÏÎ³Î¿Î½) (John 4:34), not to eat his Father&#8217;s flesh or drink his Father&#8217;s blood. And when the ones in John 6 who followed Jesus asked him what they should do to do God&#8217;s work (á¼”ÏÎ³Î¿Î½), Jesus replied that God&#8217;s work (á¼”ÏÎ³Î¿Î½) was that they believe in him whom God had sent â€“ i.e., believe in Jesus (John 6:29).</p>
<p>As I said, there are only nine verses in the entirety of John&#8217;s Gospel about &#8220;eating&#8221; Jesus&#8217; flesh and &#8220;drinking&#8221; his blood, and they&#8217;re all in one small part of one chapter of the Gospel, and they are in verses that could be omitted without changing the meaning or impact of what Jesus says in all that comes before or after them in the chapter. (Try it and see for yourself.)</p>
<p>Compare this to how many verses there are in the Gospel of John about coming to Jesus and believing in him in order to have eternal life. Count how many such verses or phrases there are in just John 6, and then count how many such verses or phrases there are in the rest of the Gospel of John.</p>
<p>&#8220;But as many as received him, to those who believe in his name, he gave them the right to become children of God.&#8221; (John 1:12)</p>
<p>&#8220;These signs have been written about so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in his name.&#8221; (John 20:31)</p>
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		<title>By: RonP</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-517558</link>
		<dc:creator>RonP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4956#comment-517558</guid>
		<description>Devin,
Are you saying that the RCC recognizes baptism in Protestant churches as being fully effectual (by which I mean just as effectual as Catholic baptism) in regards to salvation? Is so, thanks, I was not aware of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Devin,<br />
Are you saying that the RCC recognizes baptism in Protestant churches as being fully effectual (by which I mean just as effectual as Catholic baptism) in regards to salvation? Is so, thanks, I was not aware of that.</p>
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		<title>By: RonP</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-517556</link>
		<dc:creator>RonP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4956#comment-517556</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with you there, Eric. Read in context, it seems clear to me that Jesus is talking about looking to Him and His teachings for spiritual sustenance and for the hope of eternal life. I certainly would never discourage anyone from participating in the Lord&#039;s Supper -- I just don&#039;t believe that it is a vehicle through which salvation is dispensed from God to mankind in weekly doses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you there, Eric. Read in context, it seems clear to me that Jesus is talking about looking to Him and His teachings for spiritual sustenance and for the hope of eternal life. I certainly would never discourage anyone from participating in the Lord&#8217;s Supper &#8212; I just don&#8217;t believe that it is a vehicle through which salvation is dispensed from God to mankind in weekly doses.</p>
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		<title>By: David Pell</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-517544</link>
		<dc:creator>David Pell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4956#comment-517544</guid>
		<description>What Jesus says in John 6 was so repulsive to many of the hearers that they left.  Surely Jesus would not have wanted them to depart from him merely because of a misunderstanding, and would have quickly explained his true, less offensive, meaning.  

The disciples admit that they, too, would have left, if they weren&#039;t sure that Jesus had the words of life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Jesus says in John 6 was so repulsive to many of the hearers that they left.  Surely Jesus would not have wanted them to depart from him merely because of a misunderstanding, and would have quickly explained his true, less offensive, meaning.  </p>
<p>The disciples admit that they, too, would have left, if they weren&#8217;t sure that Jesus had the words of life.</p>
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		<title>By: Martha</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/bryan-cross-interview-part-3-anglicans-evangelicals-convert-apologetics-and-books/comment-page-1#comment-517535</link>
		<dc:creator>Martha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=4956#comment-517535</guid>
		<description>Ah, this is the part I love.

&quot;Show me where that&#039;s in the Bible!&quot; cries the earnest Protestant about some Catholic tradition.

When the Catholic does that, the Protestant then says &quot;Oh, that&#039;s not what that means at all!&quot;

So we are bound by God&#039;s law to tithe our incomes because it says so right there in black-and-white from Leviticus to Corinthians.

But that&#039;s not a Eucharistic chapter because come on, what does eating and drinking have to do with the Eucharist in this context?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, this is the part I love.</p>
<p>&#8220;Show me where that&#8217;s in the Bible!&#8221; cries the earnest Protestant about some Catholic tradition.</p>
<p>When the Catholic does that, the Protestant then says &#8220;Oh, that&#8217;s not what that means at all!&#8221;</p>
<p>So we are bound by God&#8217;s law to tithe our incomes because it says so right there in black-and-white from Leviticus to Corinthians.</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s not a Eucharistic chapter because come on, what does eating and drinking have to do with the Eucharist in this context?</p>
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