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	<title>Comments on: Billy Gillispie and Your Pastor: What do they have in common? (Part 1 of 2)</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: treebeard</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-422131</link>
		<dc:creator>treebeard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 13:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-422131</guid>
		<description>As someone who has had a taste of this (but as a lay minister, not an official &quot;pastor&quot;), I can sympathize. I wasn&#039;t fired, but I did walk away.

In retrospect, one verse has helped me. I wish I had heard it and lived by it at the time:

Gal. 1:10 - &quot;For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.&quot;

Laying hold of the truth in that verse can be very liberating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who has had a taste of this (but as a lay minister, not an official &#8220;pastor&#8221;), I can sympathize. I wasn&#8217;t fired, but I did walk away.</p>
<p>In retrospect, one verse has helped me. I wish I had heard it and lived by it at the time:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Gal.+1%3A10" class="bibleref" title="ESV Gal 1:10">Gal. 1:10</a> &#8211; &#8220;For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.&#8221;</p>
<p>Laying hold of the truth in that verse can be very liberating.</p>
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		<title>By: BrianD</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-420379</link>
		<dc:creator>BrianD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 01:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-420379</guid>
		<description>Michael,

Would Calipari compare to the guy brought in to lead a church to &quot;greater glory&quot; and bigger numbers?

And what&#039;s your take on him as the UK coach?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>Would Calipari compare to the guy brought in to lead a church to &#8220;greater glory&#8221; and bigger numbers?</p>
<p>And what&#8217;s your take on him as the UK coach?</p>
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		<title>By: Sherman the Tank</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-417548</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherman the Tank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 03:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-417548</guid>
		<description>That list is why I didn&#039;t get ordained.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That list is why I didn&#8217;t get ordained.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-417135</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-417135</guid>
		<description>How about this part of &quot;the rest of the story&quot;?

Billy Gillispie was building a real basketball program at Texas A&amp;M after only a couple of years work. (The new, small church in a different state.) For the first time ever, I saw real enthusiasm among the students @ A&amp;M for basketball. Students came back during Christmas break to root for the team. They camped outside the night for tickets. The team was doing well in the NCAA tournament. Everything was going well. And Gillispie got all the credit.

Then he dumped A&amp;M, unceremoniously, in order to go to Kentucky. There he had all the privileges he lacked at A&amp;M -- a tradition, and entire state supporting him, even more money than the gazillions he had at A&amp;M. 

So a pastor spends two years at the small little church down the way, begins to have some success at the church in a short period of time (even if problematically defined), then dumps the little church to go to the megachurch with all the benefits he lacked at the little church. But then in basically the same period of time, he fails at the megachurch just as dramatically as he succeeded at the small church.

Perhaps it was wrong for the megachurch to dump the pastor so quickly. But it was wrong for the pastor to dump the small church in the first place.

This year, Texas A&amp;M went to the second round of the NCAA tournament. Kentucky failed even to qualify for the tournament.

I&#039;m not crying for Gillispie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about this part of &#8220;the rest of the story&#8221;?</p>
<p>Billy Gillispie was building a real basketball program at Texas A&amp;M after only a couple of years work. (The new, small church in a different state.) For the first time ever, I saw real enthusiasm among the students @ A&amp;M for basketball. Students came back during Christmas break to root for the team. They camped outside the night for tickets. The team was doing well in the NCAA tournament. Everything was going well. And Gillispie got all the credit.</p>
<p>Then he dumped A&amp;M, unceremoniously, in order to go to Kentucky. There he had all the privileges he lacked at A&amp;M &#8212; a tradition, and entire state supporting him, even more money than the gazillions he had at A&amp;M. </p>
<p>So a pastor spends two years at the small little church down the way, begins to have some success at the church in a short period of time (even if problematically defined), then dumps the little church to go to the megachurch with all the benefits he lacked at the little church. But then in basically the same period of time, he fails at the megachurch just as dramatically as he succeeded at the small church.</p>
<p>Perhaps it was wrong for the megachurch to dump the pastor so quickly. But it was wrong for the pastor to dump the small church in the first place.</p>
<p>This year, Texas A&amp;M went to the second round of the NCAA tournament. Kentucky failed even to qualify for the tournament.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not crying for Gillispie.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-416932</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-416932</guid>
		<description>And, I might add, this is the reason I left the business world to go into professional ministry. I am atoning for the things I did in pursuit of a larger bonus or a promotion, namely find ways to get rid of employees to increase corporate earnings. I got richer and provided my family with a good living, but at the expense of hundreds of people with mortgages, children, and community work. 

So, while ministry to me can be very frustrating and unrewarding and stressful, it&#039;s still in the name of God, of goodness, of justice. 

It also helps that I&#039;m not ordained and do not feel as though I&#039;m called to any particular church. I&#039;ve been discerning if I should start the process to become a pastor but have about decided I don&#039;t want to go there -- for a lot of the reasons mentioned above -- even though my pastor thinks I should. 

I&#039;m a member at one church but work at another, so the two don&#039;t mix, and I wouldn&#039;t have too much hesitation about taking my spiritual gifts somewhere else if I felt it was a healthier environment. 

I love this blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, I might add, this is the reason I left the business world to go into professional ministry. I am atoning for the things I did in pursuit of a larger bonus or a promotion, namely find ways to get rid of employees to increase corporate earnings. I got richer and provided my family with a good living, but at the expense of hundreds of people with mortgages, children, and community work. </p>
<p>So, while ministry to me can be very frustrating and unrewarding and stressful, it&#8217;s still in the name of God, of goodness, of justice. </p>
<p>It also helps that I&#8217;m not ordained and do not feel as though I&#8217;m called to any particular church. I&#8217;ve been discerning if I should start the process to become a pastor but have about decided I don&#8217;t want to go there &#8212; for a lot of the reasons mentioned above &#8212; even though my pastor thinks I should. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m a member at one church but work at another, so the two don&#8217;t mix, and I wouldn&#8217;t have too much hesitation about taking my spiritual gifts somewhere else if I felt it was a healthier environment. </p>
<p>I love this blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff Preshlee</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-416916</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff Preshlee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-416916</guid>
		<description>Did you take this list from the Dauphin Way Baptist Church recovery group?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you take this list from the Dauphin Way Baptist Church recovery group?</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-416910</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-416910</guid>
		<description>@Ed,

Great points. I totally agree with you. When I talked about business being gentler and kinder, I meant in terms of people to people politics. 

When it comes to dog-eat-dog unrestrained rich-get-richer-and-that&#039;s-the-way-we-like-it capitalism, the workers do suffer greatly. 

It&#039;s the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules. The corollary of this rule is that he who contributes sweat and the hours of their life is merely a disposable resource to the person with the gold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ed,</p>
<p>Great points. I totally agree with you. When I talked about business being gentler and kinder, I meant in terms of people to people politics. </p>
<p>When it comes to dog-eat-dog unrestrained rich-get-richer-and-that&#8217;s-the-way-we-like-it capitalism, the workers do suffer greatly. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules. The corollary of this rule is that he who contributes sweat and the hours of their life is merely a disposable resource to the person with the gold.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-416843</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-416843</guid>
		<description>My husband received a complaint when he was working as a youth minister that he was always trying to incorporate something spiritual into youth activities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My husband received a complaint when he was working as a youth minister that he was always trying to incorporate something spiritual into youth activities.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-416747</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-416747</guid>
		<description>I left the church I had attended for years in part over just such a railroading of one of the pastors, and not because I was upset at the man being forced out, but because an organization that claims to offer a life of forgiveness through Christ could not see fit to offer that same forgiveness to one of its own.

Having said that, Boo hoo to those in the ministry that feel they are being unjustly treated, burdened with too many expectations, or forced out trivial reasons.  Walk a few miles in the shoes of us lay folks - people who get replaced by automated assembly equipment, lose their jobs to someone making 1/10th what they do in another country, deal with insidious office politics that rarely have anything to do with the quality of their work (&quot;What do you mean you don&#039;t play golf?&quot;), spend huge amounts of time away from family in order to be a &quot;team&quot; player, etcetera, ad nauseam.  In my experience, the pastor&#039;s salary is the last thing cut when the offerings drop.

American capitalism is a cruel mistress to its cogs.  Why should we be surprised that churches mirror that kind of what-have-you-done-for-us-lately mentality?

Either you chose this career field, in which case you got what you wished for, or God has called you to this field knowing full well what you&#039;d be up against.

Rant over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I left the church I had attended for years in part over just such a railroading of one of the pastors, and not because I was upset at the man being forced out, but because an organization that claims to offer a life of forgiveness through Christ could not see fit to offer that same forgiveness to one of its own.</p>
<p>Having said that, Boo hoo to those in the ministry that feel they are being unjustly treated, burdened with too many expectations, or forced out trivial reasons.  Walk a few miles in the shoes of us lay folks &#8211; people who get replaced by automated assembly equipment, lose their jobs to someone making 1/10th what they do in another country, deal with insidious office politics that rarely have anything to do with the quality of their work (&#8221;What do you mean you don&#8217;t play golf?&#8221;), spend huge amounts of time away from family in order to be a &#8220;team&#8221; player, etcetera, ad nauseam.  In my experience, the pastor&#8217;s salary is the last thing cut when the offerings drop.</p>
<p>American capitalism is a cruel mistress to its cogs.  Why should we be surprised that churches mirror that kind of what-have-you-done-for-us-lately mentality?</p>
<p>Either you chose this career field, in which case you got what you wished for, or God has called you to this field knowing full well what you&#8217;d be up against.</p>
<p>Rant over.</p>
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		<title>By: ScottL</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/billy-gillispie-and-your-pastor-what-do-they-have-in-common-part-1-of-2/comment-page-2#comment-416470</link>
		<dc:creator>ScottL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2988#comment-416470</guid>
		<description>Michael, are you describing the SBC? ;)

No doubt this happens across the board. I think some, if not a lot, of it comes out of a wrong understanding of church leadership and their roles, especially those gifted with Eph 4:11 functions. These 5 (or 4) ministries are given to equip the church so that THEY can get on with the ministry of serving. But, unfortunately, we think the paid people are the ones that are to get on with the ministry. They have a ministry, but it is to equip the body to get on with the ministry (and I am not negating that leaders are actually involved in other things as well).

In general, people probably have more noble hearts than we can give them credit for, but most of the time they spend thinking up things that the leadership is supposed to be doing, rather than getting on with doing those services and ministries themselves. Oh, if we only had a glimpse into that. It would set leaders free and release a move across the western world that would be very refreshing.

If a church leader does not know they are given to equip the people to get on with the serving (or ministry), then they will likely fall into the trap of trying to fulfill everyone&#039;s expectations. No doubt that will lead to hurt, burnout and disillusionment.

Oh, that we would understand how to be pastoral, or caring and compassionate, towards our shepherds.

[As a side note, I hope Kentucky does not take away Calipari from my alma mater.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, are you describing the SBC? <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>No doubt this happens across the board. I think some, if not a lot, of it comes out of a wrong understanding of church leadership and their roles, especially those gifted with <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Eph+4%3A11" class="bibleref" title="ESV Eph 4:11">Eph 4:11</a> functions. These 5 (or 4) ministries are given to equip the church so that THEY can get on with the ministry of serving. But, unfortunately, we think the paid people are the ones that are to get on with the ministry. They have a ministry, but it is to equip the body to get on with the ministry (and I am not negating that leaders are actually involved in other things as well).</p>
<p>In general, people probably have more noble hearts than we can give them credit for, but most of the time they spend thinking up things that the leadership is supposed to be doing, rather than getting on with doing those services and ministries themselves. Oh, if we only had a glimpse into that. It would set leaders free and release a move across the western world that would be very refreshing.</p>
<p>If a church leader does not know they are given to equip the people to get on with the serving (or ministry), then they will likely fall into the trap of trying to fulfill everyone&#8217;s expectations. No doubt that will lead to hurt, burnout and disillusionment.</p>
<p>Oh, that we would understand how to be pastoral, or caring and compassionate, towards our shepherds.</p>
<p>[As a side note, I hope Kentucky does not take away Calipari from my alma mater.]</p>
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