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	<title>Comments on: Are American Christians &#8220;Persecuted?&#8221;</title>
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	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Descendent</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-2#comment-328494</link>
		<dc:creator>Descendent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 20:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-328494</guid>
		<description>Well backing up whining of persecution with long lengthy setences from biblical quotations or whatever is really clever isn&#039;t it, Billybob?
As an atheist who is being watched left and right and had many noses stuck up at mefor being open about atheism, I will say without a doubt in my mind, Christians...ARE NOT BEING PERSECUTED!!!!!!!
Wow, you talk about persecution but yet you want to take action to possibly kill people for having homosexual sex in their own bedrooms and you keep bitching about Islam?  Tell me, can you tell the difference between a Jew, Muslim, or Catholic just by looking at them.  Do you ever find yourself not making an ignorant racist statement against Mexicans or people of possible Middle Eastern origin.  Having to spend my days roaming across the evangelical republican wastelands of Ohio, I will happily laugh in your face for everytime you whine about persecution.  I hope one day you are right and I won&#039;t be threatened out of schools, jobs, or anywhere else for daring to mention in a discussion that I&#039;m an atheist.  It must be nice having everything in your control and being able to make everybody feel sorry for you so easily.  If anything, at least you provide me with a good laugh as much as the fact that Jerry Falwell&#039;s fat carcass is rotting in the ground along with his boyfriend, William Luther Peirce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well backing up whining of persecution with long lengthy setences from biblical quotations or whatever is really clever isn&#8217;t it, Billybob?<br />
As an atheist who is being watched left and right and had many noses stuck up at mefor being open about atheism, I will say without a doubt in my mind, Christians&#8230;ARE NOT BEING PERSECUTED!!!!!!!<br />
Wow, you talk about persecution but yet you want to take action to possibly kill people for having homosexual sex in their own bedrooms and you keep bitching about Islam?  Tell me, can you tell the difference between a Jew, Muslim, or Catholic just by looking at them.  Do you ever find yourself not making an ignorant racist statement against Mexicans or people of possible Middle Eastern origin.  Having to spend my days roaming across the evangelical republican wastelands of Ohio, I will happily laugh in your face for everytime you whine about persecution.  I hope one day you are right and I won&#8217;t be threatened out of schools, jobs, or anywhere else for daring to mention in a discussion that I&#8217;m an atheist.  It must be nice having everything in your control and being able to make everybody feel sorry for you so easily.  If anything, at least you provide me with a good laugh as much as the fact that Jerry Falwell&#8217;s fat carcass is rotting in the ground along with his boyfriend, William Luther Peirce.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Peggy</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-2#comment-305358</link>
		<dc:creator>Peggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 19:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-305358</guid>
		<description>True Christians and others are being persecuted at the present time in America.
Please pray for the truth to be exposed, justice to be served and for righteousness to prevail in America.
Now, called &quot;gang stalking&quot; (please google search this term) is being aimed at Christians in America and elsewhere.  It is real, and it is spreading.
http://www.badexperiment.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True Christians and others are being persecuted at the present time in America.<br />
Please pray for the truth to be exposed, justice to be served and for righteousness to prevail in America.<br />
Now, called &#8220;gang stalking&#8221; (please google search this term) is being aimed at Christians in America and elsewhere.  It is real, and it is spreading.<br />
<a href="http://www.badexperiment.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.badexperiment.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-2#comment-235516</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 22:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-235516</guid>
		<description>Upon reading your post I was thrown aside a little by your opinion that can Americans justly claim that they are being persecuted? That is an interesting question in which I never thought about because I always assumed that any hindrances in advancing the Good News was considered persecution. There are many ways in which a person can be persecuted. From top-down persecution which includes overt hindrances from the government to the individual, and bottom up persecution where one&#039;s family and friends turn the convert over to the authorities or religious leaders for losing their faith. When you said, &quot;So Paul states a general principle: all the godly will be persecuted as false believers and impostors grow worse and worse.&quot; I take it to mean that everyone who professes the name of Christ Jesus will suffer persecution and in fact Jesus says &quot;don&#039;t be surprised when they persecute you because just as they treated me, they will do the same to you!&quot; It is true that persecution takes many forms depending on geographical location, however, it is trivial to assert that one form of persecution is genuine than the other. This could perhaps be an issue of pride if one takes their type persecution and esteem it over another&#039;s to dismiss or belittle their suffering. However, I do believe that when in war it is much easier to fight a visible, identifiable enemy than to fight an invisible force as if one was shadow boxing. In other words, the persecution that happens outside of The United States has a face and a body attached to the persecutor rather here in the states, the persecutor is a force of persuasion and a current that can carry you adrift if you are not aware of societies schemes. This is why Paul says, &quot;And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.&quot; (Romans 12:2)

God bless,
rjb</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Upon reading your post I was thrown aside a little by your opinion that can Americans justly claim that they are being persecuted? That is an interesting question in which I never thought about because I always assumed that any hindrances in advancing the Good News was considered persecution. There are many ways in which a person can be persecuted. From top-down persecution which includes overt hindrances from the government to the individual, and bottom up persecution where one&#8217;s family and friends turn the convert over to the authorities or religious leaders for losing their faith. When you said, &#8220;So Paul states a general principle: all the godly will be persecuted as false believers and impostors grow worse and worse.&#8221; I take it to mean that everyone who professes the name of Christ Jesus will suffer persecution and in fact Jesus says &#8220;don&#8217;t be surprised when they persecute you because just as they treated me, they will do the same to you!&#8221; It is true that persecution takes many forms depending on geographical location, however, it is trivial to assert that one form of persecution is genuine than the other. This could perhaps be an issue of pride if one takes their type persecution and esteem it over another&#8217;s to dismiss or belittle their suffering. However, I do believe that when in war it is much easier to fight a visible, identifiable enemy than to fight an invisible force as if one was shadow boxing. In other words, the persecution that happens outside of The United States has a face and a body attached to the persecutor rather here in the states, the persecutor is a force of persuasion and a current that can carry you adrift if you are not aware of societies schemes. This is why Paul says, &#8220;And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.&#8221; (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Romans+12%3A2" class="bibleref" title="ESV Romans 12:2">Romans 12:2</a>)</p>
<p>God bless,<br />
rjb</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-2#comment-230996</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-230996</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...which sometimes seems more like a case of the atheist/leftist caricature of Christians in America feeling persecuted because they don’t get to persecute other people.&lt;/i&gt; -- Jeremiah Lawson

&quot;Feeling persecuted because they don&#039;t get to persecute other people&quot; -- Good line; gotta remember it.  Though it&#039;s not specifically Christian so much as a generic &quot;Stupid People Trick&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8230;which sometimes seems more like a case of the atheist/leftist caricature of Christians in America feeling persecuted because they don’t get to persecute other people.</i> &#8212; Jeremiah Lawson</p>
<p>&#8220;Feeling persecuted because they don&#8217;t get to persecute other people&#8221; &#8212; Good line; gotta remember it.  Though it&#8217;s not specifically Christian so much as a generic &#8220;Stupid People Trick&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-2#comment-230802</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-230802</guid>
		<description>That wasn&#039;t a quote, IMonk, that was a full-length sermon.

What I see is another Christianization of the general Apocalyptic feel of the time.  Since Darby, there has been the idea that things HAVE to get worse or Christ won&#039;t return.  This can easily slip into the attitude (overt or covert) of making things worse to grease the skids -- the direct opposite of the Jewish idea of &lt;i&gt;tikkun olam&lt;/i&gt;.

Since the current economic slump and the release and promotion of that Ben Stein movie &lt;i&gt;Expelled&lt;/i&gt;, I have observed even Christians who I thought were levelheaded going into full-honk Great Tribulation mode.  (Even the Christian SF trying to break the Conventional Christian Fiction mold has too heavy a proportion of Persecution Dystopias for me.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That wasn&#8217;t a quote, IMonk, that was a full-length sermon.</p>
<p>What I see is another Christianization of the general Apocalyptic feel of the time.  Since Darby, there has been the idea that things HAVE to get worse or Christ won&#8217;t return.  This can easily slip into the attitude (overt or covert) of making things worse to grease the skids &#8212; the direct opposite of the Jewish idea of <i>tikkun olam</i>.</p>
<p>Since the current economic slump and the release and promotion of that Ben Stein movie <i>Expelled</i>, I have observed even Christians who I thought were levelheaded going into full-honk Great Tribulation mode.  (Even the Christian SF trying to break the Conventional Christian Fiction mold has too heavy a proportion of Persecution Dystopias for me.)</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-2#comment-229848</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-229848</guid>
		<description>The quote is too long. Link it next time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The quote is too long. Link it next time.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Larry KY</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-2#comment-229837</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry KY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-229837</guid>
		<description>Many vain men in our day in America would make persecution a new work, a way to heaven, both insulting those overseas who are persecuted not for their bravado to the faith but for the Cross in which they trust.  But this kind of pagan auto-flagellation is not new, it is as old as man’s fallen religion and comes in any time and society with fresh makeup on it.  Theologies of glory, fallen religion under any name even “Christian”, always have a tendency to ‘wet their fingers and stick them up in the air’ of time and space to see how God is operating, then adjusting their works (varied and many) accordingly.  Their eyes are completely off of the Cross or trying to see around or through it, hence a theology of glory.  

Thus, blessings from their god (and they may call their god ‘christian’ or biblical, but it is an idol) for their works can seek a blessing that is either negative or positive in outward form but is in sum total “how they know they are pleasing god”.  In a word there is zero difference in ‘health wealth preaching’ which says in short, “IF you DO good (works), THEN ‘god’ will bless you with wealth and prosperity”; and these modern monks who in essence say, “IF you DO xyz, deny these worldly things, THEN ‘god’ will bless you with persecution”.  A persecution worked for by ANY means is no real persecution at all but a martyr (witness) to the devil.  Persecution, true persecution is unto and an attempt to dislodge one from that naked passive trust in Christ at the Cross for one.  This is why Luther saw antichrist in Islam, Popery and the Anabaptist, and he was precisely and acutely dead on.

A preacher who preaches a message that says, “Do good things to receive health and wealth” is not one wit different than a giddy spirited preacher that preaches a message that “If you don’t do xyz of the society or if you will imitate so and so over in that country, God will bless you with persecution”.  Both of these are antichristic messages pure and simple.  The Anabaptist witness made a crucial error here during the reformation, as do all forms of religious pietism, and these reveal the real antichristic nature of that doctrine, which Luther saw clearly.  What pleases God is Christ and Christ alone, “this is My Son in Whom I’m well pleased…”.  Those trusting that nakedly will receive true persecution either of the sword attempting to unlatch the Promise, or directly attempting to unlatch the Promise Word of God.  Thus, when ANYONE says or implies that, “You are not a Christian because you are not being persecuted like xyz over there”, the absolute irony in that is that THAT person saying that is truly persecuting YOU the hearer of that.  For the sum total of their speech is “The Promise of Christ for you for your sin and having eternal life is not yours until you do this work, the work of being persecuted exactly like so and so over there.”  That’s the irony in this, to demand similar persecution as if it is meritorious and bewitching God for the favor of God over Christ alone…IS REAL persecution against the Cross of Christ in the one nakedly passively trusting in the Cross of Christ ALONE.  It is the word of the devil, it is the mockery of Ishmael.  Persecution, true persecution, is not garnered but laid upon one for trusting nakedly and passively (true saving faith) in Christ alone utterly apart from works of ANY kind, shape or form.  That’s the very nature of true suffering, to have it laid upon you, not “earned or mustered up” for something one has DONE (works and merit mongering).



Calvin got it in Galatians 4.  So did Luther but his is longer.
Gal 4:29. As then, he that was born after the flesh. He denounces the cruelty of the false apostles, who wantonly insulted pious persons that placed all their confidence in Christ. There was abundant need that the uneasiness of the oppressed should be soothed by consolation, and that the cruelty of their oppressors should be severely checked. It is not wonderful, he says, that the children of the law, at the present day, do what Ishmael their father at first did, who, trusting to his being the first-born, persecuted Isaac the true heir. With the same proud disdain do his posterity now, on account of outward ceremonies, circumcision, and the various services of the law, molest and vaunt over the lawful sons of God. The Spirit is again contrasted with the flesh, that is, the calling of God with human appearance. (1 Samuel 16:7.) So the disguise is admitted to be possessed by the followers of the Law and of works, but the reality is claimed for those who rely on the calling of God alone, and depend upon his grace.

Persecuted. But persecution is nowhere mentioned, only Moses says that Ishmael was qhum, (metzahek,) mocking, (Genesis 21:9;) and by this participle he intimates that Ishmael ridiculed his brother Isaac. The explanation offered by some Jews, that this was a simple smile, is entirely inadmissible; for what cruelty would it have argued, that a harmless smile should have been so fearfully revenged? There cannot then be a doubt that he maliciously endeavored to provoke the child Isaac by reproachful language.
But how widely distant is this from persecution? 1 And yet it is not idly or unguardedly that Paul enlarges on this point. No persecution ought to distress us so much as to see our calling attempted to be undermined by the reproaches of wicked men. Neither blows, nor scourging, nor nails, nor thorns, occasioned to our Lord such intense suffering as that blasphemy:
&quot;He trusted in God; what availeth it to him?
for he is deprived of all assistance.&quot; (Matthew 27:43.)
There is more venom in this than in all persecutions; for how much more alarming is it that the grace of Divine adoption shall be made void, than that this frail life shall be taken from us? Ishmael did not persecute his brother with the sword; but, what is worse, he treated him with haughty disdain by trampling under foot the promise of God. All persecutions arise from this source, that wicked men despise and hate in the elect the grace of God; a memorable instance of which we have in the history of Cain and Abel. (Genesis 4:8.)

This reminds us, that not only ought we to be filled with horror at outward persecutions, when the enemies of religion slay us with fire and sword; when they banish, imprison, torture, or scourge; but when they attempt, by their blasphemies, to make void our confidence, which rests on the promises of God; when they ridicule our salvation, when they wantonly laugh to scorn the whole gospel. Nothing ought to wound our minds so deeply as contempt of God, and reproaches cast upon His grace: nor is there any kind of persecution more deadly than when the salvation of the soul is assailed. We who have escaped from the tyranny of the Pope, are not called to encounter the swords of wicked men. But how blind must we be, if we are not affected by that spiritual persecution, in which they strive, by every method, to extinguish that doctrine, from which we draw the breath of life! -- when they attack our faith by their blasphemies, and shake not a few of the less informed! For my own part, I am far more grieved by the fury of the Epicureans than of the Papists. They do not attack us by open violence; but, in proportion as the name of God is more dear to me than my own life, the diabolical conspiracy which I see in operation to extinguish all fear and worship of God, to root out the remembrance of Christ, or to abandon it to the jeers of the ungodly, cannot but rack my mind with greater anxiety, than if a whole country were burning in one conflagration:

--End Quote

Blessings,

Larry KY</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many vain men in our day in America would make persecution a new work, a way to heaven, both insulting those overseas who are persecuted not for their bravado to the faith but for the Cross in which they trust.  But this kind of pagan auto-flagellation is not new, it is as old as man’s fallen religion and comes in any time and society with fresh makeup on it.  Theologies of glory, fallen religion under any name even “Christian”, always have a tendency to ‘wet their fingers and stick them up in the air’ of time and space to see how God is operating, then adjusting their works (varied and many) accordingly.  Their eyes are completely off of the Cross or trying to see around or through it, hence a theology of glory.  </p>
<p>Thus, blessings from their god (and they may call their god ‘christian’ or biblical, but it is an idol) for their works can seek a blessing that is either negative or positive in outward form but is in sum total “how they know they are pleasing god”.  In a word there is zero difference in ‘health wealth preaching’ which says in short, “IF you DO good (works), THEN ‘god’ will bless you with wealth and prosperity”; and these modern monks who in essence say, “IF you DO xyz, deny these worldly things, THEN ‘god’ will bless you with persecution”.  A persecution worked for by ANY means is no real persecution at all but a martyr (witness) to the devil.  Persecution, true persecution is unto and an attempt to dislodge one from that naked passive trust in Christ at the Cross for one.  This is why Luther saw antichrist in Islam, Popery and the Anabaptist, and he was precisely and acutely dead on.</p>
<p>A preacher who preaches a message that says, “Do good things to receive health and wealth” is not one wit different than a giddy spirited preacher that preaches a message that “If you don’t do xyz of the society or if you will imitate so and so over in that country, God will bless you with persecution”.  Both of these are antichristic messages pure and simple.  The Anabaptist witness made a crucial error here during the reformation, as do all forms of religious pietism, and these reveal the real antichristic nature of that doctrine, which Luther saw clearly.  What pleases God is Christ and Christ alone, “this is My Son in Whom I’m well pleased…”.  Those trusting that nakedly will receive true persecution either of the sword attempting to unlatch the Promise, or directly attempting to unlatch the Promise Word of God.  Thus, when ANYONE says or implies that, “You are not a Christian because you are not being persecuted like xyz over there”, the absolute irony in that is that THAT person saying that is truly persecuting YOU the hearer of that.  For the sum total of their speech is “The Promise of Christ for you for your sin and having eternal life is not yours until you do this work, the work of being persecuted exactly like so and so over there.”  That’s the irony in this, to demand similar persecution as if it is meritorious and bewitching God for the favor of God over Christ alone…IS REAL persecution against the Cross of Christ in the one nakedly passively trusting in the Cross of Christ ALONE.  It is the word of the devil, it is the mockery of Ishmael.  Persecution, true persecution, is not garnered but laid upon one for trusting nakedly and passively (true saving faith) in Christ alone utterly apart from works of ANY kind, shape or form.  That’s the very nature of true suffering, to have it laid upon you, not “earned or mustered up” for something one has DONE (works and merit mongering).</p>
<p>Calvin got it in <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Galatians+4" class="bibleref" title="ESV Galatians 4">Galatians 4</a>.  So did Luther but his is longer.<br />
<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Gal+4%3A29" class="bibleref" title="ESV Gal 4:29">Gal 4:29</a>. As then, he that was born after the flesh. He denounces the cruelty of the false apostles, who wantonly insulted pious persons that placed all their confidence in Christ. There was abundant need that the uneasiness of the oppressed should be soothed by consolation, and that the cruelty of their oppressors should be severely checked. It is not wonderful, he says, that the children of the law, at the present day, do what Ishmael their father at first did, who, trusting to his being the first-born, persecuted Isaac the true heir. With the same proud disdain do his posterity now, on account of outward ceremonies, circumcision, and the various services of the law, molest and vaunt over the lawful sons of God. The Spirit is again contrasted with the flesh, that is, the calling of God with human appearance. (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=1+Samuel+16%3A7" class="bibleref" title="ESV 1Samuel 16:7">1 Samuel 16:7</a>.) So the disguise is admitted to be possessed by the followers of the Law and of works, but the reality is claimed for those who rely on the calling of God alone, and depend upon his grace.</p>
<p>Persecuted. But persecution is nowhere mentioned, only Moses says that Ishmael was qhum, (metzahek,) mocking, (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Genesis+21%3A9" class="bibleref" title="ESV Genesis 21:9">Genesis 21:9</a> <img src='http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  and by this participle he intimates that Ishmael ridiculed his brother Isaac. The explanation offered by some Jews, that this was a simple smile, is entirely inadmissible; for what cruelty would it have argued, that a harmless smile should have been so fearfully revenged? There cannot then be a doubt that he maliciously endeavored to provoke the child Isaac by reproachful language.<br />
But how widely distant is this from persecution? 1 And yet it is not idly or unguardedly that Paul enlarges on this point. No persecution ought to distress us so much as to see our calling attempted to be undermined by the reproaches of wicked men. Neither blows, nor scourging, nor nails, nor thorns, occasioned to our Lord such intense suffering as that blasphemy:<br />
&#8220;He trusted in God; what availeth it to him?<br />
for he is deprived of all assistance.&#8221; (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Matthew+27%3A43" class="bibleref" title="ESV Matthew 27:43">Matthew 27:43</a>.)<br />
There is more venom in this than in all persecutions; for how much more alarming is it that the grace of Divine adoption shall be made void, than that this frail life shall be taken from us? Ishmael did not persecute his brother with the sword; but, what is worse, he treated him with haughty disdain by trampling under foot the promise of God. All persecutions arise from this source, that wicked men despise and hate in the elect the grace of God; a memorable instance of which we have in the history of Cain and Abel. (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Genesis+4%3A8" class="bibleref" title="ESV Genesis 4:8">Genesis 4:8</a>.)</p>
<p>This reminds us, that not only ought we to be filled with horror at outward persecutions, when the enemies of religion slay us with fire and sword; when they banish, imprison, torture, or scourge; but when they attempt, by their blasphemies, to make void our confidence, which rests on the promises of God; when they ridicule our salvation, when they wantonly laugh to scorn the whole gospel. Nothing ought to wound our minds so deeply as contempt of God, and reproaches cast upon His grace: nor is there any kind of persecution more deadly than when the salvation of the soul is assailed. We who have escaped from the tyranny of the Pope, are not called to encounter the swords of wicked men. But how blind must we be, if we are not affected by that spiritual persecution, in which they strive, by every method, to extinguish that doctrine, from which we draw the breath of life! &#8212; when they attack our faith by their blasphemies, and shake not a few of the less informed! For my own part, I am far more grieved by the fury of the Epicureans than of the Papists. They do not attack us by open violence; but, in proportion as the name of God is more dear to me than my own life, the diabolical conspiracy which I see in operation to extinguish all fear and worship of God, to root out the remembrance of Christ, or to abandon it to the jeers of the ungodly, cannot but rack my mind with greater anxiety, than if a whole country were burning in one conflagration:</p>
<p>&#8211;End Quote</p>
<p>Blessings,</p>
<p>Larry KY</p>
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		<title>By: Caine</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-2#comment-229826</link>
		<dc:creator>Caine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-229826</guid>
		<description>All I can think of is N. T. Wright quoting his bishop, &quot;Everywhere St. Paul went, there was a riot; everywhere I go, they serve me tea.&quot;

However, I do know of one pastor in Ohio that matches St. Paul better than Wright&#039;s bishop. He calls sin directly sin; he preaches repentance; he preaches the need for forgiveness and Christ as the only provision for that forgiveness.  He does not scream, rant, or rail (I don&#039;t think his voice has that volume level on it).  Yet when invited to college campuses to speak, he does cause riots.  The last time, the administration canceled the rest of his speaking engagements by fiat.  His church on prior engagements got bomb threats.

Somehow, this man, Dan Burgoyne,--by speaking the Word directly and without compromise OUTSIDE THE SAFE CONFINES OF A CHURCH BUILDING WHERE TO SPEAK TO BASICALLY EVERYONE THAT AGREES WITH YOU ANYWAY--still sparks the wrath of the world.  Maybe Americans aren&#039;t persecuted because we interact on two different levels, preaching Christ and the Bible directly within our churches and interacting with the world on &quot;Christ Lite,&quot; mentioning Jesus but still accepting the basic multicultural assumptions and language of our system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I can think of is N. T. Wright quoting his bishop, &#8220;Everywhere St. Paul went, there was a riot; everywhere I go, they serve me tea.&#8221;</p>
<p>However, I do know of one pastor in Ohio that matches St. Paul better than Wright&#8217;s bishop. He calls sin directly sin; he preaches repentance; he preaches the need for forgiveness and Christ as the only provision for that forgiveness.  He does not scream, rant, or rail (I don&#8217;t think his voice has that volume level on it).  Yet when invited to college campuses to speak, he does cause riots.  The last time, the administration canceled the rest of his speaking engagements by fiat.  His church on prior engagements got bomb threats.</p>
<p>Somehow, this man, Dan Burgoyne,&#8211;by speaking the Word directly and without compromise OUTSIDE THE SAFE CONFINES OF A CHURCH BUILDING WHERE TO SPEAK TO BASICALLY EVERYONE THAT AGREES WITH YOU ANYWAY&#8211;still sparks the wrath of the world.  Maybe Americans aren&#8217;t persecuted because we interact on two different levels, preaching Christ and the Bible directly within our churches and interacting with the world on &#8220;Christ Lite,&#8221; mentioning Jesus but still accepting the basic multicultural assumptions and language of our system.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry KY</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-1#comment-229644</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry KY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 00:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-229644</guid>
		<description>Persecuted by the sword?  Rarely to no.  However, persecuted otherwise, yes.  Paul identifies in Galatians that Ishmael’s laughter in Gen. at Isaac to be persecution.  Why?  What is the ultimate goal of persecution from the world fueled by the devil?  Luther is most helpful here.  The ultimate goal of persecution is not the harm to the body, as painful as that is, but rather to drive the man’s or woman’s soul to NOT believe God, that is Christ, is FOR him or her.  The real persecution behind the persecution of the sword is to drive a man or woman to have no hope in Christ for them wherein the real death and real hell enter.  Many men can muster up or gin up a strength against physical harm or death, this depends upon the nature of different people, but what a man cannot gin up is faith by itself without real hope in Christ for them.  Beware that there is a way to make persecution and suffering a new theology of glory or work toward heaven, this is not to disparage those who overseas truly suffer for trusting Christ for them, but to warn men in their own fleshly zeal to falsely think that suffering gains them heaven.  This is a real danger in men, we saw it in Peter who in the garden is ready to draw swords and says, “No not you Lord” to which Christ calls him Satan having the things of men in mind.  

Thus, persecution at its root is to disparage a man from trusting Christ alone for himself.  This is either done, the root to persecution by threat of sword (which is secondary) or immediately by false doctrine IN the church or men laughing at the hope that we have.  So, YES, the American church is deeply under persecution.  Luther saw that the church that is under peace to be in the greatest of persecution or total persecution.  A man - many Christians have suffered this under the devil’s preaching their damnation internally to them and by Gospel-less doctrines within the church – may so not fear physical death that they contemplate suicide (some go so far as to succeed) for the suffering of the second death, pain of hell, is greater and feared MORE than the first death, the death of the body.  The later, death of the body, Luther called a “childish death” compared to the second death which is pain of hell, wrath and condemnation of the Law.  Luther was spot on target.  Here we see that many American Christians are DEEPLY and silently persecuted all the while in the physical comfort of their homes, with intense spiritual battle going on as the devil lies and obscures through vain doctrine and preaching and the world saying, “…hath God really said TO YOU FOR YOU…”.  This kind of persecution is worse than the sword because here is the root and end all of the devil’s device in persecution, to make man despair of Christ!

I saw an interesting scene in a movie the other night that illustrates this deep theological point concerning ToG Vs. ToC and suffering.  The scene itself had nothing to do with theology but in principle it was a perfect example.  Luther always saw that that which denied, covered up, or other wise obscured the Gospel - be it in Word or Sacrament - as anti-christic to the core.  And he was right.  All such things boil down to a “hath God really said (Christ for you)” when all is said and done.  Luther rightly observed this as the highest of end and end all of all other means of persecution, even the end of physical persecution (e.g. the sword).  Calvin even saw this in his brilliant commentary on Gal. 4 where he notes well the laughter of Ishmael being persecution, which is explicitly what the Apostles states, as worse than if “…the entire country were going up in one conflagration…”.

The scene was these boys in a home for abandoned children, a state run orphanage.  Some bully boys, bigger, were picking on this younger more innocent boy who had been holding out this great hope of knowing he has a sign and knows that his parents are out there and he will find them, that is the FOR HIM in his HOPE (the theme in the movie in principle is inadvertently of grace and gospel in principle and is deep here).  They were physically threatening him (persecution by the sword) as a means to PRIMARILY make him recant his hope (certain expectation), the REAL and END to persecution.  What was notable about this was that the boy was not disturbed by the threat of physical reprisal but the words they were speaking to him as they mocked and laughed at him (like Ishmael), “You have no such hope”.  It was a theme the boy was fighting against throughout the entire moving, holding this hope out while the world denied it completely to him.  The words against his hope was the real persecution, he could endure the physical threats and still hold on to hope, but when they railed at his hope, “No you do not have this folly…”, then he despairs until some even/sign (“sacramental thing”) happens to bring him back his hope, TO HIM/FOR HIM.  Then again he could endure the physical.

Herein is true persecution from the devil, world and the flesh that primarily is not interested in physical harm but denying that hope, certain expectation of the Gospel, which is the Word of God spoken to us in Word and Sacrament, the FOR YOU.  Any other word that denies, covers or causes an allusion otherwise in Word or Sacrament or doctrine defining these as other than Gospel FOR YOU - is the persecuting word of the devil that drives man to despair.  No matter what doctrine or theology or whom it comes from.  When this happens the physical harm is a trivial thing, even hoped for as if to end this pain of hell which is the second death.

Thus, American Christians are in persecution, its just not by the sword of the devil but the word of the devil, which is as from the beginning his primary war with God:  The word of the devil against the Word of God, even more the word of the devil against the INCARNATE Word of God, Christ Jesus.  Thus, in the desert we see the real battle is Satan speaking his word to Jesus, the Incarnate Word, and saying, “God, Your Word, should worship me, my word”.  This persecution is as old as “…hath God really said…”.

Blessings,

Larry KY</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Persecuted by the sword?  Rarely to no.  However, persecuted otherwise, yes.  Paul identifies in Galatians that Ishmael’s laughter in Gen. at Isaac to be persecution.  Why?  What is the ultimate goal of persecution from the world fueled by the devil?  Luther is most helpful here.  The ultimate goal of persecution is not the harm to the body, as painful as that is, but rather to drive the man’s or woman’s soul to NOT believe God, that is Christ, is FOR him or her.  The real persecution behind the persecution of the sword is to drive a man or woman to have no hope in Christ for them wherein the real death and real hell enter.  Many men can muster up or gin up a strength against physical harm or death, this depends upon the nature of different people, but what a man cannot gin up is faith by itself without real hope in Christ for them.  Beware that there is a way to make persecution and suffering a new theology of glory or work toward heaven, this is not to disparage those who overseas truly suffer for trusting Christ for them, but to warn men in their own fleshly zeal to falsely think that suffering gains them heaven.  This is a real danger in men, we saw it in Peter who in the garden is ready to draw swords and says, “No not you Lord” to which Christ calls him Satan having the things of men in mind.  </p>
<p>Thus, persecution at its root is to disparage a man from trusting Christ alone for himself.  This is either done, the root to persecution by threat of sword (which is secondary) or immediately by false doctrine IN the church or men laughing at the hope that we have.  So, YES, the American church is deeply under persecution.  Luther saw that the church that is under peace to be in the greatest of persecution or total persecution.  A man &#8211; many Christians have suffered this under the devil’s preaching their damnation internally to them and by Gospel-less doctrines within the church – may so not fear physical death that they contemplate suicide (some go so far as to succeed) for the suffering of the second death, pain of hell, is greater and feared MORE than the first death, the death of the body.  The later, death of the body, Luther called a “childish death” compared to the second death which is pain of hell, wrath and condemnation of the Law.  Luther was spot on target.  Here we see that many American Christians are DEEPLY and silently persecuted all the while in the physical comfort of their homes, with intense spiritual battle going on as the devil lies and obscures through vain doctrine and preaching and the world saying, “…hath God really said TO YOU FOR YOU…”.  This kind of persecution is worse than the sword because here is the root and end all of the devil’s device in persecution, to make man despair of Christ!</p>
<p>I saw an interesting scene in a movie the other night that illustrates this deep theological point concerning ToG Vs. ToC and suffering.  The scene itself had nothing to do with theology but in principle it was a perfect example.  Luther always saw that that which denied, covered up, or other wise obscured the Gospel &#8211; be it in Word or Sacrament &#8211; as anti-christic to the core.  And he was right.  All such things boil down to a “hath God really said (Christ for you)” when all is said and done.  Luther rightly observed this as the highest of end and end all of all other means of persecution, even the end of physical persecution (e.g. the sword).  Calvin even saw this in his brilliant commentary on <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Gal.+4" class="bibleref" title="ESV Gal 4">Gal. 4</a> where he notes well the laughter of Ishmael being persecution, which is explicitly what the Apostles states, as worse than if “…the entire country were going up in one conflagration…”.</p>
<p>The scene was these boys in a home for abandoned children, a state run orphanage.  Some bully boys, bigger, were picking on this younger more innocent boy who had been holding out this great hope of knowing he has a sign and knows that his parents are out there and he will find them, that is the FOR HIM in his HOPE (the theme in the movie in principle is inadvertently of grace and gospel in principle and is deep here).  They were physically threatening him (persecution by the sword) as a means to PRIMARILY make him recant his hope (certain expectation), the REAL and END to persecution.  What was notable about this was that the boy was not disturbed by the threat of physical reprisal but the words they were speaking to him as they mocked and laughed at him (like Ishmael), “You have no such hope”.  It was a theme the boy was fighting against throughout the entire moving, holding this hope out while the world denied it completely to him.  The words against his hope was the real persecution, he could endure the physical threats and still hold on to hope, but when they railed at his hope, “No you do not have this folly…”, then he despairs until some even/sign (“sacramental thing”) happens to bring him back his hope, TO HIM/FOR HIM.  Then again he could endure the physical.</p>
<p>Herein is true persecution from the devil, world and the flesh that primarily is not interested in physical harm but denying that hope, certain expectation of the Gospel, which is the Word of God spoken to us in Word and Sacrament, the FOR YOU.  Any other word that denies, covers or causes an allusion otherwise in Word or Sacrament or doctrine defining these as other than Gospel FOR YOU &#8211; is the persecuting word of the devil that drives man to despair.  No matter what doctrine or theology or whom it comes from.  When this happens the physical harm is a trivial thing, even hoped for as if to end this pain of hell which is the second death.</p>
<p>Thus, American Christians are in persecution, its just not by the sword of the devil but the word of the devil, which is as from the beginning his primary war with God:  The word of the devil against the Word of God, even more the word of the devil against the INCARNATE Word of God, Christ Jesus.  Thus, in the desert we see the real battle is Satan speaking his word to Jesus, the Incarnate Word, and saying, “God, Your Word, should worship me, my word”.  This persecution is as old as “…hath God really said…”.</p>
<p>Blessings,</p>
<p>Larry KY</p>
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		<title>By: John C</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/are-american-christians-persecuted/comment-page-1#comment-229480</link>
		<dc:creator>John C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 14:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=1994#comment-229480</guid>
		<description>I believe the great majority of Christians in America are not persecuted because they have conformed to the culture.  I think if we separated ourselves from the culture through our actions, rather than leaving it and creating our own sanitized version of the same thing, we would be persecuted more.  So I agree with Paul&#039;s statement.  For more of my thoughts on this subject and my others check out http://mrpositivity.blogspot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the great majority of Christians in America are not persecuted because they have conformed to the culture.  I think if we separated ourselves from the culture through our actions, rather than leaving it and creating our own sanitized version of the same thing, we would be persecuted more.  So I agree with Paul&#8217;s statement.  For more of my thoughts on this subject and my others check out <a href="http://mrpositivity.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://mrpositivity.blogspot.com</a></p>
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