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	<title>Comments on: An Official Apology</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Bob Smietana</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-137775</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Smietana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 20:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Michael, 

Guessing that you haven&#039;t read 90 Minutes in Heaven. I was very suspicious of the book but had to read it for an interview assignment. A better title would be, 10 pages in heaven, and 200 pages of recovery from a horrific car crash--a semi literally ran over Piper&#039;s Ford Escort, leaving with with two shattered legs and one arm  barely attached to his body. Piper was pronounced dead on the scene, then, an hour and a half later, was found to have a faint pulse.  He says he had a vision of heaven during that time frame --but unlike NDE accounts, Piper&#039;s description of that vision is understated--and there&#039;s no guided tour. That vision, he says, reaffirmed his belief in the life everlasting.  

He recovered, in large part, because of the care of his congregation: church members sat by his hospital bedside for weeks, cared for him when he was housebound during his recovery, and encouraged him through an excruciating rehab.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, </p>
<p>Guessing that you haven&#8217;t read 90 Minutes in Heaven. I was very suspicious of the book but had to read it for an interview assignment. A better title would be, 10 pages in heaven, and 200 pages of recovery from a horrific car crash&#8211;a semi literally ran over Piper&#8217;s Ford Escort, leaving with with two shattered legs and one arm  barely attached to his body. Piper was pronounced dead on the scene, then, an hour and a half later, was found to have a faint pulse.  He says he had a vision of heaven during that time frame &#8211;but unlike NDE accounts, Piper&#8217;s description of that vision is understated&#8211;and there&#8217;s no guided tour. That vision, he says, reaffirmed his belief in the life everlasting.  </p>
<p>He recovered, in large part, because of the care of his congregation: church members sat by his hospital bedside for weeks, cared for him when he was housebound during his recovery, and encouraged him through an excruciating rehab.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh S</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-137719</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 15:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology#comment-137719</guid>
		<description>A lot of non-Catholics pick up B16&#039;s books, too.  However, you won&#039;t be finding them at Lifeway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of non-Catholics pick up B16&#8242;s books, too.  However, you won&#8217;t be finding them at Lifeway.</p>
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		<title>By: o.h.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-137346</link>
		<dc:creator>o.h.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 13:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology#comment-137346</guid>
		<description>Anna,

Right, there will be Catholic bookstores occasionally with things like Left Behind; but I&#039;m guessing that&#039;s as rare in your experience as in mine, while serious Protestant theology, even for laypeople (e.g. Wright, Lewis), is much more likely to be sold. So if the statistics are coming from Catholic booksellers, that will be reflected.

I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any reliable way to find out what Catholics are actually buying and reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna,</p>
<p>Right, there will be Catholic bookstores occasionally with things like Left Behind; but I&#8217;m guessing that&#8217;s as rare in your experience as in mine, while serious Protestant theology, even for laypeople (e.g. Wright, Lewis), is much more likely to be sold. So if the statistics are coming from Catholic booksellers, that will be reflected.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any reliable way to find out what Catholics are actually buying and reading.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna A</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-136755</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology#comment-136755</guid>
		<description>O.H.  

    I&#039;ve seen a Catholic bookstore with the &quot;Left Behind&quot; series in them.  The DRE (Director of Religious Education) of my parish at the time, was surprised that I was upset.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>O.H.  </p>
<p>    I&#8217;ve seen a Catholic bookstore with the &#8220;Left Behind&#8221; series in them.  The DRE (Director of Religious Education) of my parish at the time, was surprised that I was upset.</p>
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		<title>By: o.h.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-136683</link>
		<dc:creator>o.h.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology#comment-136683</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t the source for the Catholic lists (the first set) Catholic bookstores? So of course Lewis and Wright would show up, but Osteen wouldn&#039;t; because Catholic bookstores carry Lewis and Wright, but not Osteen etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the source for the Catholic lists (the first set) Catholic bookstores? So of course Lewis and Wright would show up, but Osteen wouldn&#8217;t; because Catholic bookstores carry Lewis and Wright, but not Osteen etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-136655</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 10:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology#comment-136655</guid>
		<description>Um, I think those lists from amazon have more to do with how amazon categorizes their books rather than who&#039;s buying them - 96% of Osteen purchasers could be Roman Catholic, and they wouldn&#039;t be categorizing it in &quot;Catholicism.&quot; 

Piper&#039;s book has a sequel now. We sell the heck out of both at Joseph-Beth - I&#039;d wondered what Lifeway and the others did with it... I intend to use them to prop up a &quot;Christian afterlife&quot; display table soon, so the folks who are looking at Piper&#039;s book will see some other options...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, I think those lists from amazon have more to do with how amazon categorizes their books rather than who&#8217;s buying them &#8211; 96% of Osteen purchasers could be Roman Catholic, and they wouldn&#8217;t be categorizing it in &#8220;Catholicism.&#8221; </p>
<p>Piper&#8217;s book has a sequel now. We sell the heck out of both at Joseph-Beth &#8211; I&#8217;d wondered what Lifeway and the others did with it&#8230; I intend to use them to prop up a &#8220;Christian afterlife&#8221; display table soon, so the folks who are looking at Piper&#8217;s book will see some other options&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stiles</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-136501</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stiles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 23:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology#comment-136501</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;
But Iâ€™m not surprised anymore when the readership lists are dominated by â€œcounseling and â€˜how toâ€™ stuffâ€ because, frankly, there are alot of people out there with alot of problems that (now I duck and cover) meaty theology isnâ€™t going to help.
&lt;/i&gt;

I agree with your reasoning Bob, in part.  A lot of the &#039;howto&#039; are aimed at real problems, though again some aren&#039;t (books of generic boosterism).  My problem with the latter is this: what does it say about the teaching in churches when people aren&#039;t actually able to recognise the real problems anymore?

Furthermore, the readership of such books aren&#039;t evenly distributed.  They are concentrated in certain parts of the church. This is an incredibly unhealthy situation and as someone who is a &#039;charismatic&#039; (though in the Sovereign Grace sense these days) is one I find incredibly frustrating. It can drive me to near apoplexy if I only let it.

I think we need to articulate theology and the cross a whole lot better if we are to wean people off what is essentially spiritual toxic waste.  The recent talks by Tim Keller on Evangelism is a very good description of the model of engagement and the spirit we need to adopt:

http://www.dashhouse.com/darryl/2007/10/tim_keller_what_are_the_risks_1.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
But Iâ€™m not surprised anymore when the readership lists are dominated by â€œcounseling and â€˜how toâ€™ stuffâ€ because, frankly, there are alot of people out there with alot of problems that (now I duck and cover) meaty theology isnâ€™t going to help.<br />
</i></p>
<p>I agree with your reasoning Bob, in part.  A lot of the &#8216;howto&#8217; are aimed at real problems, though again some aren&#8217;t (books of generic boosterism).  My problem with the latter is this: what does it say about the teaching in churches when people aren&#8217;t actually able to recognise the real problems anymore?</p>
<p>Furthermore, the readership of such books aren&#8217;t evenly distributed.  They are concentrated in certain parts of the church. This is an incredibly unhealthy situation and as someone who is a &#8216;charismatic&#8217; (though in the Sovereign Grace sense these days) is one I find incredibly frustrating. It can drive me to near apoplexy if I only let it.</p>
<p>I think we need to articulate theology and the cross a whole lot better if we are to wean people off what is essentially spiritual toxic waste.  The recent talks by Tim Keller on Evangelism is a very good description of the model of engagement and the spirit we need to adopt:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dashhouse.com/darryl/2007/10/tim_keller_what_are_the_risks_1.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.dashhouse.com/darryl/2007/10/tim_keller_what_are_the_risks_1.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Anton</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-136482</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 20:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology#comment-136482</guid>
		<description>Anna A

I will repeat the whole thought as I listed it;  â€œChristianity is/should be a religion of the mind, will and objective knowledge, and only translates/should translate into physical and emotional responses as the result of the former.â€  The three components that I list are;
1)  mind;
2)  will;
3)  objective knowledge;
A  rendering of the opposites could be;
1)  emotions;  
2)  fate/chance/magnetic determinism.
3)  Intuitive mysticism.
Infatuation with and devotion to an aesthetical/mystical Jesus is the level of devotion of most devout Protestants and Catholics alike.
Devotion and appreciation of God for Who He Is, What He Has Done, and What He Commands in His Word is what God desires of us.
The former utilize rites, processes, images, music, lights etc.  to enter into his mystical aesthetical presence.  
The latter enter in his REAL by faith in and to the objective knowledge of Him given to us in language form in His Word.  In other words, the mystic visualizes a god while a believer believes an objective God, The God Who Has Revealed Himself In His Word.  Allow me to repeat; â€œ... I donâ€™t believe (respond/worship) because of what I feel and experience emotionally, but rather (because of) what I know cognitively.â€  That requires both the mind and the will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anna A</p>
<p>I will repeat the whole thought as I listed it;  â€œChristianity is/should be a religion of the mind, will and objective knowledge, and only translates/should translate into physical and emotional responses as the result of the former.â€  The three components that I list are;<br />
1)  mind;<br />
2)  will;<br />
3)  objective knowledge;<br />
A  rendering of the opposites could be;<br />
1)  emotions;<br />
2)  fate/chance/magnetic determinism.<br />
3)  Intuitive mysticism.<br />
Infatuation with and devotion to an aesthetical/mystical Jesus is the level of devotion of most devout Protestants and Catholics alike.<br />
Devotion and appreciation of God for Who He Is, What He Has Done, and What He Commands in His Word is what God desires of us.<br />
The former utilize rites, processes, images, music, lights etc.  to enter into his mystical aesthetical presence.<br />
The latter enter in his REAL by faith in and to the objective knowledge of Him given to us in language form in His Word.  In other words, the mystic visualizes a god while a believer believes an objective God, The God Who Has Revealed Himself In His Word.  Allow me to repeat; â€œ&#8230; I donâ€™t believe (respond/worship) because of what I feel and experience emotionally, but rather (because of) what I know cognitively.â€  That requires both the mind and the will.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Sacamento</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-136479</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Sacamento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 20:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology#comment-136479</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think the various lists do, however, point out the value of having skilled writers with institutional authority.&lt;/i&gt;

Like C.S. Lewis?????  N.T. Wright???

Sorry.  Couldn&#039;t resist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think the various lists do, however, point out the value of having skilled writers with institutional authority.</i></p>
<p>Like C.S. Lewis?????  N.T. Wright???</p>
<p>Sorry.  Couldn&#8217;t resist.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Dunbar</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology/comment-page-1#comment-136471</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Dunbar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/an-official-apology#comment-136471</guid>
		<description>Michael,
   I didn&#039;t mean to induce an ecclesial battle. And certainly trash is popular all over the place.

I think the various lists do, however, point out the value of having skilled writers with institutional authority. Lacking extensive institutional structure, free-church groups are more flexible but give up a authoritative teaching office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,<br />
   I didn&#8217;t mean to induce an ecclesial battle. And certainly trash is popular all over the place.</p>
<p>I think the various lists do, however, point out the value of having skilled writers with institutional authority. Lacking extensive institutional structure, free-church groups are more flexible but give up a authoritative teaching office.</p>
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