Also, I am no liberal, but I know my REAL American history, and when my preacher states we earned our “freedom” by “God’s hand”, I am sickened. So it was by God’s hand that the settlers LIED and KILLED MILLIONS of Native Americans. Those settlers, who, by the very laws we supposedly love, would have put to death because of almost near genocide they took part of. What about the MILLIONS of African slaves whose horrible treatment became the basis of our economy in the 1800’s?? God’s hand, huh? I don’t think so.

The U.S. is as flawed of a nation as any other land, while I am proud to be an American, I am ashamed of the actions of my forefathers, both to the Native American, and to the African American (I am a white woman).

Is it possible that the van owner was encouraging us as a nation to have faith in God and commitment to Jesus Christ rather than proclaiming it already exists as part of our national character? If it’s an encouragement, I can get behind that. If it’s a proclamation, I have some issues with it.

I love America (I’m not suggesting your don’t). I appreciate it’s heritage and it’s place in the world. I think America has been and continues to be a tool for good in this world. I celebrate Independence Day with great enthusiasm (It’s my 2nd favorite holiday behind Thanksgiving).

But I have no delusion that America is somehow associated with God or chosen by God or that being American means being a Christian.

Rather, my single greatest source of loyalty to American is that, in America I’m free to seek God and worship Him in whatever manner I choose. My appreciation for this freedom runs very deep.

I agree that many patriotic sermons are nothing more than nationalistic populism (scratcing the itching ears). But I don’t see a genuine love of country coupled with faith in God as being, by definition, idolitrous.

You got me inspired to finish this essay that I started and buried about a year ago. Here it is. Your feedback will be much appreciated.

Did I at some point suggest that God was on China’s side and not ours? That is not what I meant.

If our Chinese friend is smart, he will realize that God is neither on China’s nor America’s side. He is on His own side. And as Abe Lincoln said, it matters much less whether God is on our side as whether we are on his.

So he would realize that he owes patriotism and fidelity to his country … but not unlimited fidelity. As Tolkien put it, “there is but one loyalty from which no man can be absolved for any cause” (Akallabeth).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

“So, Brian, let’s take your argument even further. If the Taliban takes over a country, say Afghanistan, then we should encourage all Afghans to adhere to the oppressive policies of the Taliban, including the humiliation of women, forcing them to wear burkas and even cover their faces, not to mention approving of the violence that the Taliban has perpetrated.”

Approve of the violence they commit? No.

But if the law of the land is to wear a burqa, I’m pretty well going to wear a burqa and cover my face. I would pray, protest, and work within the legal system to change things, as a good citizen of Afghanistan.

Our orders are to subject ourselves to the governing authorities unless they are violating God’s laws. And when they DO violate God’s laws, we are to resist passively as Jesus and the Apostles did. Armed resistance to the civil government is sometimes required … but never in the name of God.

Likewise in an AQ-run country: While we shouldn’t go along with the violence, there are all kinds of other laws that any country has and AQ would enforce — e.g., laws against adultery, laws about smoking, or traffic lights. We obey those laws that are consistent with God’s word and disobey those that are not. Paying taxes is consistent with God’s word. Standing idly by while our government murders the innocent is not.

Remember that Romans 13 was written to a time when Roman emperors meant people like Tiberius, Caligula, and Nero — tolerant of Christians at best and openly hostile at worst. Think human torches to light garden parties.

And y’know what? Paul told us to obey those people too, not just the ones who have policies we agree with. Romans 13:1 tells us there is *no* authority that God has not established. So if God establishes AQ as the authority in your country, you certainly are going to obey them, on pain of His displeasure. With the caveat always that if there is ever a contradiction between what God and our country demand of us, we obey God and not man.

So … if I were living in an AQ-dominated country, I’d obey their traffic laws and their dress code but I would not murder innocents. And my resistance would be much more after the style of Martin Luther King than that of Mao Tse Tung.

If you want a clear example, I would suggest looking up Palestinian Christians in Palestine, or Iranian Christians in Iran. Many of them are intensely patriotic about their countries — did you know, I once read a book about the few Egyptian fighter aces during the wars with Isreal, and not a few of them were Christians ? — but in their cases, there is a clearly defined limit to what they will do for their government, and beyond that they will not go.

” If Al-Quaeda is in power, we should encourage all under their rule to learn how to fly airplanes into buildings, use chemical weapons (like they planned to do in the New York subway system before that plan was scrapped because it wasn’t “spectacular enough”) and engage in various other terrorist activities that kill thousands of people, all in the name of Allah who will reward them with 70-some odd virgins in heaven.”

No, we should not. Because doing so violates God’s law. As I said, we must obey God rather than man if a contradiction between the two ever occurs.

“I believe Paul’s interest in Romans 13 was to encourage the believers to, as far as was possible, peacefully co-exist with the ruling Roman empire at the time.”

It’s more than peaceful co-existence — it is *active obedience*. It is “rendering unto Caeser the things that are Caeser’s” … and the Bible tells us some of the thing due to those authority are taxes, obedience, respect, and honor.

We give to Caeser — or to the PRC if that’s our government — or to the USA — or to the Palestinian Authority — the things it has a right to demand. We do not allow them to become an idol usurping God’s place. We give Caeser Caeser’s due. We do not give him God’s due.

” I have no doubt that Paul would stop way short of asking followers of Christ to worship the emporer as was sometimes required, depending on which Caesar was in power.”

Correct. We rendered unto Caeser those things that were Caeser’s but we refused to give to Caeser that which is rightfully due to God.

“We should respect the laws of this country and be good citizens. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. But when people elevate their patriotism to the place that only God should occupy, when church services are co-opted for patriotic mumbo-jumbo”

Agree.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I agree wholeheartedly with your post, but this is a bit hard for me as a Korean American to express, because the knee-jerk reaction I get is the “you are not a true American, so there” kind. I guess there is more validity if the sentiment comes from a red-blooded white American.

You may have heard a lot about Korea’s skyrocketing church growth for the past three decades. Much of the force behind it is Korean patriotism, and yes, a lot of Korean Christians believe God has singled out their nation for special blessings and replaced America as his most favored nation. It is true.

What is it about Christians and patriotism in almost every country? Wasn’t it unheard of among the first century Christians who called themselves aliens and strangers?

Brian P. You are absolutely correct about being good citizens, but the topic at hand is over the top patriotism. Should the Chinese person convince himself to believe that God is on China’s side? It is wrong to think that just as it is wrong to think God is on America’s side.

I will soon post an essay along the same topic soon on my blog as well. Thanks and keep up the good work.

I know that this position is not real popular, but thank you for articulating it, Michael.

steve

So, Brian, let’s take your argument even further. If the Taliban takes over a country, say Afghanistan, then we should encourage all Afghans to adhere to the oppressive policies of the Taliban, including the humiliation of women, forcing them to wear burkas and even cover their faces, not to mention approving of the violence that the Taliban has perpetrated. If Al-Quaeda is in power, we should encourage all under their rule to learn how to fly airplanes into buildings, use chemical weapons (like they planned to do in the New York subway system before that plan was scrapped because it wasn’t “spectacular enough”) and engage in various other terrorist activities that kill thousands of people, all in the name of Allah who will reward them with 70-some odd virgins in heaven.

I believe Paul’s interest in Romans 13 was to encourage the believers to, as far as was possible, peacefully co-exist with the ruling Roman empire at the time. I have no doubt that Paul would stop way short of asking followers of Christ to worship the emporer as was sometimes required, depending on which Caesar was in power. I have a hard time believing that when Christians got martyred for not bowing to Caesar that Paul was looking down from heaven shaking his head saying “See, you didn’t listen to me, and look what happened.”

We should respect the laws of this country and be good citizens. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. But when people elevate their patriotism to the place that only God should occupy, when church services are co-opted for patriotic mumbo-jumbo (and, unlike Michael, I have a big problem singing the “patriotic sections of the hymnal” because that’s not what church if for), and people have the inability to realize that Christianity and conservative politics are not the same thing, then we have a problem