Comments on: Alone, and Not Alone: Meditations From the Evangelical Wilderness http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:16:28 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Progo http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-320785 Progo Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:16:08 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-320785 A friend who knows (and shares) my struggles just sent this link to me, saying, 'This one's for you!' And so it is. Thank you so much for helping us "Wilderness Wanderers" know that we don't wander alone. Thank you, too, to Warwick for writing: "So I go and sit and sigh and try and work out why I’m still there. Why we can’t just leave. Of recent times, I’ve begun to think that maybe it’s God trying to teach me to learn to worship and hear him in a situation that I don’t want to be in. That if I can learn to worship him there, I can worship anywhere. To fellowship with others whose core belief is the same as mine, but whose faith practice feels so unnatural to me." I've expressed those same thoughts, but they were more palatable and encouraging, somehow, coming from someone else's pen. Empowered by the HOly Spirit, these words carried me grace-fully through this past Sunday's worship challenges. A friend who knows (and shares) my struggles just sent this link to me, saying, ‘This one’s for you!’ And so it is. Thank you so much for helping us “Wilderness Wanderers” know that we don’t wander alone.

Thank you, too, to Warwick for writing:

“So I go and sit and sigh and try and work out why I’m still there. Why we can’t just leave. Of recent times, I’ve begun to think that maybe it’s God trying to teach me to learn to worship and hear him in a situation that I don’t want to be in. That if I can learn to worship him there, I can worship anywhere. To fellowship with others whose core belief is the same as mine, but whose faith practice feels so unnatural to me.”

I’ve expressed those same thoughts, but they were more palatable and encouraging, somehow, coming from someone else’s pen. Empowered by the HOly Spirit, these words carried me grace-fully through this past Sunday’s worship challenges.

]]> By: Kasey "Rahab" http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-320192 Kasey "Rahab" Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:34:05 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-320192 Amen. For each one of these called to with Great integrity.... Stories of perseverences, and Truth! Amen. "Great Post"....love , spiritual...fun! Amen. For each one of these called to with Great integrity…. Stories of perseverences, and Truth!

Amen. “Great Post”….love , spiritual…fun!

]]> By: Kasey "Rahab" http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-319263 Kasey "Rahab" Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:54:40 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-319263 This is a Beautifully written post. If you were to take "a questioning pole" as to who is attending church, and who isn't....(?) the numbers might just astonish people-its sad. I would elaborate on my experiences that of being within the same church organization for 32 years; but I'd prefer to hold back my tongue just a smidge due to high volume eyes and ears that just can't see "Change" needed in Our Midst...let alone any infactic need for restoring injustice, truth, and witness to hardship ,and its oppressing events as it unravels--again, "with many watching". "Church Hopping" has never interested me; nor did I ever make a habit of this practice. But......as I get older; and watch the attendances of churches rather crumble. Invitations to advancing His Kingdom come with such a "Price" of ...."If you don't do, and act, and behave as WE want you too....Your obviously unruley, and not quite our mold,yipes--Get Out. Sad......these efforts of a non-creativity approach; also, a non-obedience to scriptural practice-Our sound Doctrine itself,hummmmm..... Makes a woman wonder "What on Earth"???? ...."We all have our Gifts....We all have our failures.....as requested By God, Himself, written of with a magnitude of appearances scripturally...."Thou Shall Not Stand In The Way Of Sinners".......and so forth. But today, some efforts have become so closed door that the ellegance of the scriputres written are being destroyed, and trampled to bit. So.....saying all that than...For myself....God IS my church.....God is my Master......"I look to No-One else" (other than just plain old friends-Miroslav Volf , and One t) To represent for me too take heed in every direction I would be told. You can certainly feel the "Love and Compassion" in churches of richnesses and health...in the ones struggling to survive.....You pray for Gods Wisdom to offer them perhaps a Mass Communicator to intervene before its too late......over stepping the rulers/so called authorities if need be. I look at it this way.....a trouble maker I'd say No! A artist for "Change" and proper direction as the Scriptures call for....I'd say watch out...Rahab walks a tight rope...right up front. No closed door policies aloud, nor cheating forms of lies with-held...it all comes back around two-folds, time and time again... written of greatly within the PSALMS--ASK King David! I love the Psalms... they tell stories of the days....discernments......and such. Rahab This is a Beautifully written post. If you were to take “a questioning pole” as to who is attending church, and who isn’t….(?) the numbers might just astonish people-its sad. I would elaborate on my experiences that of being within the same church organization for 32 years; but I’d prefer to hold back my tongue just a smidge due to high volume eyes and ears that just can’t see “Change” needed in Our Midst…let alone any infactic need for restoring injustice, truth, and witness to hardship ,and its oppressing events as it unravels–again, “with many watching”.
“Church Hopping” has never interested me; nor did I ever make a habit of this practice. But……as I get older; and watch the attendances of churches rather crumble. Invitations to advancing His Kingdom come with such a “Price” of ….”If you don’t do, and act, and behave as WE want you too….Your obviously unruley, and not quite our mold,yipes–Get Out. Sad……these efforts of a non-creativity approach; also, a non-obedience to scriptural practice-Our sound Doctrine itself,hummmmm….. Makes a woman wonder “What on Earth”???? ….”We all have our Gifts….We all have our failures…..as requested By God, Himself, written of with a magnitude of appearances scripturally….”Thou Shall Not Stand In The Way Of Sinners”…….and so forth. But today, some efforts have become so closed door that the ellegance of the scriputres written are being destroyed, and trampled to bit. So…..saying all that than…For myself….God IS my church…..God is my Master……”I look to No-One else” (other than just plain old friends-Miroslav Volf , and One t) To represent for me too take heed in every direction I would be told. You can certainly feel the “Love and Compassion” in churches of richnesses and health…in the ones struggling to survive…..You pray for Gods Wisdom to offer them perhaps a Mass Communicator to intervene before its too late……over stepping the rulers/so called authorities if need be. I look at it this way…..a trouble maker I’d say No! A artist for “Change” and proper direction as the Scriptures call for….I’d say watch out…Rahab walks a tight rope…right up front. No closed door policies aloud, nor cheating forms of lies with-held…it all comes back around two-folds, time and time again… written of greatly within the PSALMS–ASK King David! I love the Psalms… they tell stories of the days….discernments……and such. Rahab

]]> By: Chuck http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-318157 Chuck Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:36:47 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-318157 I have to say that both Michael's piece and many of the comments posted have been some of the most mature, well-reasoned that I have read in a long time. I too am feeling "stuck" in a church family (+20 years) that has taken off in a direction that strikes of porridge and broth. Nothing heretical or too far off the chart, but just a slowly developing shallowness where the music is loud, romantic, and mamby-pamby, and the teaching is often need-centered. I am a former RC now in a "Bible Church". I appreciate now more than ever much of my liturgical heritage but do not want to return to Rome. I have also appreciated what I have received in our evangelical church but it seems the foundations are slowly crumbling into irrelevance. What to do?? My wife and I are tied where we are with kids but I would love to consider a move. However, as many have already said, God still reigns and he reigns where we are. He will indeed continue to do his work through very imperfect people (like me) and praise him for that! Perseverance IMO is far better than church-hopping and being a trouble maker. We'll see what tomorrow holds:-) I have to say that both Michael’s piece and many of the comments posted have been some of the most mature, well-reasoned that I have read in a long time. I too am feeling “stuck” in a church family (+20 years) that has taken off in a direction that strikes of porridge and broth. Nothing heretical or too far off the chart, but just a slowly developing shallowness where the music is loud, romantic, and mamby-pamby, and the teaching is often need-centered. I am a former RC now in a “Bible Church”. I appreciate now more than ever much of my liturgical heritage but do not want to return to Rome. I have also appreciated what I have received in our evangelical church but it seems the foundations are slowly crumbling into irrelevance. What to do?? My wife and I are tied where we are with kids but I would love to consider a move. However, as many have already said, God still reigns and he reigns where we are. He will indeed continue to do his work through very imperfect people (like me) and praise him for that! Perseverance IMO is far better than church-hopping and being a trouble maker. We’ll see what tomorrow holds:-)

]]> By: Dave R http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-317486 Dave R Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:20:56 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-317486 Sometimes I feel kind of, well, shallow by not having much to say except "Yup, me that's me... that's us...". But admitting reality, here goes: "Yup..." This wandering into the post-Evangelical wilderness has brought divisions to my family, as I'm sure it has to others. Where have I heard that before...? Somewhere in the gospels? Anyway, I believe that in the Modern Reformation article Michael mentioned families stuck with church committments because of kids involved in youth ministries and etc. A couple years back I had the choice of staying in the local Smalltown Bible Church with its Hyperactive Kids for Christ programs, or rejoining the little fellowship of post-evangelicals I had attended before. The twenty-seven teenagers in the house didn't want to leave the twenty-three youth ministries they were involved in. Being a member in good standing with Homeschoolers Anonymous (Hi, my name is Dave, and I'm a recovering homeschool parent...), it tore me apart to think of our family not worshipping together. But I let the ones with wheels of their own continue on their way, and started back down the trail out of town and into the wilderness. I shudder from a distance as the musical ones learn worship as Jamming for Jesus. My wife is following the lonely trail behind me. Raised in the Pentecostal church and not knowing there was anything different, anything else that was really Christian, she had raised her daughter in the Assemblies. Her daughter was in high school when we were married, and my wife felt she couldn't ask her to start into the wilderness at such a key formative stage. So, part of the family is riding the Bible/Baptist train, part the Pentacostal bandwagon, and part chopping through overgrown and forgotten paths trying to find the Lost City of Hope. Our nation has the culture wars, our family has the worship wars... Fortunately, we peacefully coexist for the most part, but it stills saddens me that once again a Christian household displays the same trends and tendencies as the culture we live in. In the midst of all this chaos I see God meeting and drawing our kids to Himself in all of these camps. I try to feed them tidbits of real food as they careen past, and brace myself to catch and comfort them when the (likely) disillusionment strikes and they realize how thin is the porridge they've been eating. We live in a time and place where you can easily be lonely in a large city, lonely in a large church, and lonely in a large family. But as the institutions, the ways and means we've known in the past, crumble around us, the Lord continues to feed His people, even using manna from the internet. p.s. How many cliches and twisted metaphores can YOU string together at one time? :) p.p.s I don't mean to be flippant - this is serious, painful stuff. I find a dry sense of humor swirling around a tongue planted firmly in cheek helps brighten the path a little. Sometimes I feel kind of, well, shallow by not having much to say except “Yup, me that’s me… that’s us…”. But admitting reality, here goes: “Yup…”

This wandering into the post-Evangelical wilderness has brought divisions to my family, as I’m sure it has to others. Where have I heard that before…? Somewhere in the gospels? Anyway, I believe that in the Modern Reformation article Michael mentioned families stuck with church committments because of kids involved in youth ministries and etc. A couple years back I had the choice of staying in the local Smalltown Bible Church with its Hyperactive Kids for Christ programs, or rejoining the little fellowship of post-evangelicals I had attended before. The twenty-seven teenagers in the house didn’t want to leave the twenty-three youth ministries they were involved in. Being a member in good standing with Homeschoolers Anonymous (Hi, my name is Dave, and I’m a recovering homeschool parent…), it tore me apart to think of our family not worshipping together. But I let the ones with wheels of their own continue on their way, and started back down the trail out of town and into the wilderness. I shudder from a distance as the musical ones learn worship as Jamming for Jesus.

My wife is following the lonely trail behind me. Raised in the Pentecostal church and not knowing there was anything different, anything else that was really Christian, she had raised her daughter in the Assemblies. Her daughter was in high school when we were married, and my wife felt she couldn’t ask her to start into the wilderness at such a key formative stage. So, part of the family is riding the Bible/Baptist train, part the Pentacostal bandwagon, and part chopping through overgrown and forgotten paths trying to find the Lost City of Hope. Our nation has the culture wars, our family has the worship wars… Fortunately, we peacefully coexist for the most part, but it stills saddens me that once again a Christian household displays the same trends and tendencies as the culture we live in.

In the midst of all this chaos I see God meeting and drawing our kids to Himself in all of these camps. I try to feed them tidbits of real food as they careen past, and brace myself to catch and comfort them when the (likely) disillusionment strikes and they realize how thin is the porridge they’ve been eating.

We live in a time and place where you can easily be lonely in a large city, lonely in a large church, and lonely in a large family. But as the institutions, the ways and means we’ve known in the past, crumble around us, the Lord continues to feed His people, even using manna from the internet.

p.s. How many cliches and twisted metaphores can YOU string together at one time? :)

p.p.s I don’t mean to be flippant – this is serious, painful stuff. I find a dry sense of humor swirling around a tongue planted firmly in cheek helps brighten the path a little.

]]> By: anonEvang http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-317289 anonEvang Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:39:19 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-317289 My sincere thanks to those who responded to my question earlier. Mike, you've got some great commenters. My sincere thanks to those who responded to my question earlier. Mike, you’ve got some great commenters.

]]> By: sal http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-317283 sal Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:28:47 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-317283 Anna A, Thank you for your post. I live in a huge metropolitan area with more churches than some small countries probably have. It's hard for me to imagine what it might be like to have limited choices. I hope the folks in your parish soften up and lighten up. And I agree with you that the internet, and particularly this site, helps to fill in the gaps. Anna A,

Thank you for your post. I live in a huge metropolitan area with more churches than some small countries probably have. It’s hard for me to imagine what it might be like to have limited choices. I hope the folks in your parish soften up and lighten up. And I agree with you that the internet, and particularly this site, helps to fill in the gaps.

]]> By: pb&j http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-317239 pb&j Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:25:05 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-317239 Thanks for writing this, Mike! Thanks for writing this, Mike!

]]> By: Anna A http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-317129 Anna A Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:43:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-317129 Sal, There is nothing wrong in wanting to change your situation. But, it is hard not to have any choices. I'm glad to be where I am, because I love my job and my co-workers. As far as a church, I'm at the best of 3 poor choices, and if clustering continues, it may only be one. I'd love it, if I could worship and be friends at the same time. But, it is not, and frankly I don't see it changing. For it to change, both I and the people that are in my parish would have to be open and vulnerable. I will not be vulnerable when others are wearing solid armor. Probably, they don't see it that way, but I am a stranger and they are long term natives. All I can say is that I'm glad to be where I am, because I am closer to tangible spiritual food, and the Internet, including this site, help feed me. I hope that my words encourage others. Sal,

There is nothing wrong in wanting to change your situation.

But, it is hard not to have any choices. I’m glad to be where I am, because I love my job and my co-workers. As far as a church, I’m at the best of 3 poor choices, and if clustering continues, it may only be one. I’d love it, if I could worship and be friends at the same time. But, it is not, and frankly I don’t see it changing. For it to change, both I and the people that are in my parish would have to be open and vulnerable. I will not be vulnerable when others are wearing solid armor. Probably, they don’t see it that way, but I am a stranger and they are long term natives.

All I can say is that I’m glad to be where I am, because I am closer to tangible spiritual food, and the Internet, including this site, help feed me. I hope that my words encourage others.

]]> By: sal http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness/comment-page-1#comment-316823 sal Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:25:55 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alone-and-not-alone-meditations-from-the-evangelical-wilderness#comment-316823 "I don’t know if you believe this is where God wants you to be or if you feel like God is no where near or far." "In the lack of such consumeristic choices, I know this is where God wants me." Just curious--how do folks seem to know what "God wants?" I guess I didn't get that gift of discernment. Maybe you are where you are by accident of birth (born into a particular denomination) or simply by chance. If you are born into a non-Christian family, is that what "God wants?" Are all our choices necessarily what "God wants" when our intentions are to worship him? If you find yourself in a place that doesn't "fit," what's wrong with wanting to change your situation and to serve and worship God in a way that brings you closer to Him? Does God judge me by what's going on in my heart, or by the name on the building where I attend church? By the worship style and music or by the life I lead? By the creeds I recite, or by whether I really try to keep the first two commandments? I don't have any answers--just wondering. No wonder Jesus had to get away from the crowds once in a while. “I don’t know if you believe this is where God wants you to be or if you feel like God is no where near or far.”

“In the lack of such consumeristic choices, I know this is where God wants me.”

Just curious–how do folks seem to know what “God wants?” I guess I didn’t get that gift of discernment. Maybe you are where you are by accident of birth (born into a particular denomination) or simply by chance. If you are born into a non-Christian family, is that what “God wants?” Are all our choices necessarily what “God wants” when our intentions are to worship him? If you find yourself in a place that doesn’t “fit,” what’s wrong with wanting to change your situation and to serve and worship God in a way that brings you closer to Him? Does God judge me by what’s going on in my heart, or by the name on the building where I attend church? By the worship style and music or by the life I lead? By the creeds I recite, or by whether I really try to keep the first two commandments? I don’t have any answers–just wondering. No wonder Jesus had to get away from the crowds once in a while.

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