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	<title>Comments on: Alan Creech Rosaries: Great Gift Idea</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Matthew N. Petersen</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-334135</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew N. Petersen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>When I was firs praying the &quot;Rosary&quot; (though I substituted Jesus Prayer&#039;s for Hail Mary&#039;s) I switched the final two glorious mysteries from Mary to the Church, since Mary is the icon of the Church.  Not the assumption of Mary, and not the coronation of Mary, but the future(?) assumption of the Church and the future(?) crowning of the Church as queen of heaven and earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was firs praying the &#8220;Rosary&#8221; (though I substituted Jesus Prayer&#8217;s for Hail Mary&#8217;s) I switched the final two glorious mysteries from Mary to the Church, since Mary is the icon of the Church.  Not the assumption of Mary, and not the coronation of Mary, but the future(?) assumption of the Church and the future(?) crowning of the Church as queen of heaven and earth.</p>
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		<title>By: + Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-333635</link>
		<dc:creator>+ Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:25:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2624#comment-333635</guid>
		<description>As someone already said at some point there - there is no &lt;i&gt;one right way&lt;/i&gt; to pray the, or &quot;a&quot; rosary, or prayer beads, whatever you want to call them. They are a helpful prayer and meditation tool that were developed somewhere along the way, to help us focus. This is how I use mine - as a focus tool, a meditation tool. 

Sure, I pray the Hail Mary, asking her to pray for whatever I&#039;m meditating about, or perhaps for someone or some situation. I know most Protestants aren&#039;t going to do that - no problem. Pray another prayer in it&#039;s place - fine. Pray the Glory to the Father, to the Son.... etc. Pray the Jesus Prayer or some form thereof. Pray and meditate on memorized Scripture passages or the Our Father - something that helps focus you and draw you in a unitive direction with God. 

I find it helpful, as I hinted there, to use them as I&#039;m interceding for people or things - to lift that person or situation up as I&#039;m praying the prayers. Or even just as a down-time kind of mumbling sort of meditation so that it becomes a sort of prayer of &quot;groaning&quot; as it were. Hey, they&#039;re my rosaries so I&#039;m tellin&#039; you pray with them however works well for you - so there! ha! As long as it&#039;s in a generally Christian way of course - no pagan rosary prayin&#039; please.

&lt;i&gt;Thanks again to Michael and to all those who&#039;ve ordered rosaries in the last couple of days. My hands are good and sore! Peace.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone already said at some point there &#8211; there is no <i>one right way</i> to pray the, or &#8220;a&#8221; rosary, or prayer beads, whatever you want to call them. They are a helpful prayer and meditation tool that were developed somewhere along the way, to help us focus. This is how I use mine &#8211; as a focus tool, a meditation tool. </p>
<p>Sure, I pray the Hail Mary, asking her to pray for whatever I&#8217;m meditating about, or perhaps for someone or some situation. I know most Protestants aren&#8217;t going to do that &#8211; no problem. Pray another prayer in it&#8217;s place &#8211; fine. Pray the Glory to the Father, to the Son&#8230;. etc. Pray the Jesus Prayer or some form thereof. Pray and meditate on memorized Scripture passages or the Our Father &#8211; something that helps focus you and draw you in a unitive direction with God. </p>
<p>I find it helpful, as I hinted there, to use them as I&#8217;m interceding for people or things &#8211; to lift that person or situation up as I&#8217;m praying the prayers. Or even just as a down-time kind of mumbling sort of meditation so that it becomes a sort of prayer of &#8220;groaning&#8221; as it were. Hey, they&#8217;re my rosaries so I&#8217;m tellin&#8217; you pray with them however works well for you &#8211; so there! ha! As long as it&#8217;s in a generally Christian way of course &#8211; no pagan rosary prayin&#8217; please.</p>
<p><i>Thanks again to Michael and to all those who&#8217;ve ordered rosaries in the last couple of days. My hands are good and sore! Peace.</i></p>
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		<title>By: BlaineFabin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-333405</link>
		<dc:creator>BlaineFabin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2624#comment-333405</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see any reason why a person cannot use beads as well as a bible... or whatever works for that matter. Using beads often incorporates the bible, such as portions of the hail mary, the lords prayer or reciting psalms, and one could really add to that whatever portion of scripture they want. Keep in mind that some of these traditions started during times when people didn&#039;t have a big bible available to them and so these were ways to meditate upon certain portions of scripture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see any reason why a person cannot use beads as well as a bible&#8230; or whatever works for that matter. Using beads often incorporates the bible, such as portions of the hail mary, the lords prayer or reciting psalms, and one could really add to that whatever portion of scripture they want. Keep in mind that some of these traditions started during times when people didn&#8217;t have a big bible available to them and so these were ways to meditate upon certain portions of scripture.</p>
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		<title>By: wmcwirla</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-333154</link>
		<dc:creator>wmcwirla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 01:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2624#comment-333154</guid>
		<description>I could easily see using these for the recitation of the Small Catechism (a kind of Lutheran rosary, so to speak).  I&#039;m going to pick one up and take it for a test drive.  The tactile sense is as important as the other senses in devotion.  We Protestant types tend to put a premium on hearing (and rightly so!) followed by seeing (whether stained glass, icons, or PowerPoint).  Smell and touch are important too.  These strings of beads seem beautifully crafted and fitting for devotional use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could easily see using these for the recitation of the Small Catechism (a kind of Lutheran rosary, so to speak).  I&#8217;m going to pick one up and take it for a test drive.  The tactile sense is as important as the other senses in devotion.  We Protestant types tend to put a premium on hearing (and rightly so!) followed by seeing (whether stained glass, icons, or PowerPoint).  Smell and touch are important too.  These strings of beads seem beautifully crafted and fitting for devotional use.</p>
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		<title>By: Memphis Aggie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-333051</link>
		<dc:creator>Memphis Aggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2624#comment-333051</guid>
		<description>I think the original rosaries were used to pray the Our father 50 times or the Psalms at 1 Psalm per bead (that would take forever).  The idea is that once you have a rhythm going, and if you can concentrate by avoiding distractions, the beads can help you achieve meditative prayer more easily.

The addition of fixed concepts to focus on for each day and decade and the support of a group all praying the same prayer is really  sustaining.  Obviously the Catholic use is deeply Marian, but certainly, with some adjustments the practice and concepts can be used more broadly.  There are other chaplets (St Gertrude Chaplet and the Divine Mercy) that that use the beads of a standard rosary. Of course  these two examples although less Marian are still distinctly Catholic and may put off some Protestants.   The point is the structured prayer helps make is much easier to sustain prayer longer and offer it up more frequently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the original rosaries were used to pray the Our father 50 times or the Psalms at 1 Psalm per bead (that would take forever).  The idea is that once you have a rhythm going, and if you can concentrate by avoiding distractions, the beads can help you achieve meditative prayer more easily.</p>
<p>The addition of fixed concepts to focus on for each day and decade and the support of a group all praying the same prayer is really  sustaining.  Obviously the Catholic use is deeply Marian, but certainly, with some adjustments the practice and concepts can be used more broadly.  There are other chaplets (St Gertrude Chaplet and the Divine Mercy) that that use the beads of a standard rosary. Of course  these two examples although less Marian are still distinctly Catholic and may put off some Protestants.   The point is the structured prayer helps make is much easier to sustain prayer longer and offer it up more frequently.</p>
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		<title>By: Radagast</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-333013</link>
		<dc:creator>Radagast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2624#comment-333013</guid>
		<description>The point is that prayer beads - whether the rosary or other prayers entirely - help me to focus.  That focus may be on a particular event in scripture, or on Jesus, or on a particular request.  It helps keep the secular distractions at bay...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point is that prayer beads &#8211; whether the rosary or other prayers entirely &#8211; help me to focus.  That focus may be on a particular event in scripture, or on Jesus, or on a particular request.  It helps keep the secular distractions at bay&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: iMonk</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-333004</link>
		<dc:creator>iMonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2624#comment-333004</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s the big deal if some ADD person prays like me in a more concentrated way with an aid? Will we fight over anything? Sheesh. Is this a competition to see who is more spiritual? &quot;You&#039;ve got beads, but I&#039;VE GOT A BIG BIBLE.&quot;

C&#039;mon. It&#039;s ridiculous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s the big deal if some ADD person prays like me in a more concentrated way with an aid? Will we fight over anything? Sheesh. Is this a competition to see who is more spiritual? &#8220;You&#8217;ve got beads, but I&#8217;VE GOT A BIG BIBLE.&#8221;</p>
<p>C&#8217;mon. It&#8217;s ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-332935</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2624#comment-332935</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t be too quick to claim Luther&#039;s posthumous tolerance for prayer beads -- a copy still exists, in the library of the University of Jena, of a rosary handbook in the margins of which Martin Luther wrote “Where the devil do so many and various lies come from?” 

{grin}

The conference on the history of prayer beads that I went to in Leiden last spring included on the panel an Evangelical Lutheran pastor who was very scathing (and funny) on the topic of prayer beads -- her point was basically, who needs prayer beads when we have Scripture to tell us how to pray? It was a very interesting exchange of views (and quite friendly on both sides).

My own experience -- as having been brought up Congregationalist, now a rather idiosyncratic Catholic -- is that Catholics often don&#039;t really understand why their rationalizations and explanations of the rosary irritate Protestants. 

For instance: Yes, the first two sentences of the Hail Mary &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; straight out of the Bible, but in the Bible they are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; prayers -- they are greetings spoken to a human person. Justifying them as &quot;scriptural prayers&quot; requires making a lot of other assumptions: that it&#039;s okay to mentally address someone who died long ago, for instance (what Protestants refer to as &quot;praying to saints&quot;), or to use the word &quot;prayer&quot; to refer to that process. Protestants generally don&#039;t buy those assumptions, but Catholics don&#039;t always understand that there &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; assumptions involved. Yes, Protestants have no problem with repeating those Bible verses in the proper context, but turning them into prayers is quite a different story.

I&#039;ve also noticed -- rather to my amusement -- that the stories longtime Catholics most often tell about Protestants who do pray the rosary always seem to end (oddly enough) with the Protestant becoming a Catholic -- talk about a &quot;slippery slope!&quot; {grin} 

When pressed on this point, Catholics will realize that this isn&#039;t a realistic or helpful way to put things, but they often don&#039;t see why it would be offensive to Protestants until someone points it out to them. For the record, I do hear from plenty of Protestants who have used rosary beads, either with the traditional prayers,  or more often with some quite different set of prayers, who assure me they are in no danger of becoming Catholic! And the rosary certainly wasn&#039;t a factor in my own spiritual migration either.

I suppose the main point I want to make, though, is that even &lt;i&gt;within&lt;/i&gt; the Catholic tradition, there is no &lt;i&gt;necessary&lt;/i&gt; link between prayer beads and the sort of ideas about Mary that make Protestants uncomfortable (although Catholics sometimes believe there is). There is nothing inherently &quot;Marian&quot; about a string of beads, and in fact, prayer beads were used with the &quot;Our Father&quot; as early as the 13th century (hence the name &quot;paternoster&quot;). Catholics have used throughout history, and continue to use, prayer beads with other prayers, ones that Catholics and Protestants can both relate to. 

One of the Catholic prayers I have grown to particularly like is the concluding prayer of the Angelus. I think it&#039;s also a particularly appropriate prayer for Advent.

&quot;Pour forth, we beseech thee, O Lord, thy Grace into our hearts; that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ, thy Son, was made known by the message of an angel, may by his passion and cross, be brought to the glory of His resurrection, through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t be too quick to claim Luther&#8217;s posthumous tolerance for prayer beads &#8212; a copy still exists, in the library of the University of Jena, of a rosary handbook in the margins of which Martin Luther wrote “Where the devil do so many and various lies come from?” </p>
<p>{grin}</p>
<p>The conference on the history of prayer beads that I went to in Leiden last spring included on the panel an Evangelical Lutheran pastor who was very scathing (and funny) on the topic of prayer beads &#8212; her point was basically, who needs prayer beads when we have Scripture to tell us how to pray? It was a very interesting exchange of views (and quite friendly on both sides).</p>
<p>My own experience &#8212; as having been brought up Congregationalist, now a rather idiosyncratic Catholic &#8212; is that Catholics often don&#8217;t really understand why their rationalizations and explanations of the rosary irritate Protestants. </p>
<p>For instance: Yes, the first two sentences of the Hail Mary <i>are</i> straight out of the Bible, but in the Bible they are <i>not</i> prayers &#8212; they are greetings spoken to a human person. Justifying them as &#8220;scriptural prayers&#8221; requires making a lot of other assumptions: that it&#8217;s okay to mentally address someone who died long ago, for instance (what Protestants refer to as &#8220;praying to saints&#8221;), or to use the word &#8220;prayer&#8221; to refer to that process. Protestants generally don&#8217;t buy those assumptions, but Catholics don&#8217;t always understand that there <i>are</i> assumptions involved. Yes, Protestants have no problem with repeating those Bible verses in the proper context, but turning them into prayers is quite a different story.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also noticed &#8212; rather to my amusement &#8212; that the stories longtime Catholics most often tell about Protestants who do pray the rosary always seem to end (oddly enough) with the Protestant becoming a Catholic &#8212; talk about a &#8220;slippery slope!&#8221; {grin} </p>
<p>When pressed on this point, Catholics will realize that this isn&#8217;t a realistic or helpful way to put things, but they often don&#8217;t see why it would be offensive to Protestants until someone points it out to them. For the record, I do hear from plenty of Protestants who have used rosary beads, either with the traditional prayers,  or more often with some quite different set of prayers, who assure me they are in no danger of becoming Catholic! And the rosary certainly wasn&#8217;t a factor in my own spiritual migration either.</p>
<p>I suppose the main point I want to make, though, is that even <i>within</i> the Catholic tradition, there is no <i>necessary</i> link between prayer beads and the sort of ideas about Mary that make Protestants uncomfortable (although Catholics sometimes believe there is). There is nothing inherently &#8220;Marian&#8221; about a string of beads, and in fact, prayer beads were used with the &#8220;Our Father&#8221; as early as the 13th century (hence the name &#8220;paternoster&#8221;). Catholics have used throughout history, and continue to use, prayer beads with other prayers, ones that Catholics and Protestants can both relate to. </p>
<p>One of the Catholic prayers I have grown to particularly like is the concluding prayer of the Angelus. I think it&#8217;s also a particularly appropriate prayer for Advent.</p>
<p>&#8220;Pour forth, we beseech thee, O Lord, thy Grace into our hearts; that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ, thy Son, was made known by the message of an angel, may by his passion and cross, be brought to the glory of His resurrection, through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-332895</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2624#comment-332895</guid>
		<description>iMonk,
This is a wonderful post. I have always wondered how the prayer beads are employed, and like many others, wondered if the beads were exclusively wed to the Rosary. Evidently not.

Thanks again. I&#039;m looking forward to constructing some of these for my family and friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>iMonk,<br />
This is a wonderful post. I have always wondered how the prayer beads are employed, and like many others, wondered if the beads were exclusively wed to the Rosary. Evidently not.</p>
<p>Thanks again. I&#8217;m looking forward to constructing some of these for my family and friends.</p>
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		<title>By: BlaineFabin</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/alan-creech-rosaries-great-gift-idea/comment-page-1#comment-332828</link>
		<dc:creator>BlaineFabin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/?p=2624#comment-332828</guid>
		<description>If a person has a problem with mary there are several other types of prayer beads/ropes that they could venture into.. The one I use the most is a pater noster and the prayer you use is the Lords Prayer. Also there is no reason that one couldn&#039;t make up their own program to use. For instance when I use the paternoster I have improvised by starting with an act of contrition and for the beads that separate the decades (set of ten beads) I pray the Hail Mary and recite the nicean creed. Though to be honest I really do think that people need to get past the whole anti mary thing... When I went post evangelical that was one of the first things I got past for the very simple reason that it was no different than anything else that got manipulated by Fundamentalists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a person has a problem with mary there are several other types of prayer beads/ropes that they could venture into.. The one I use the most is a pater noster and the prayer you use is the Lords Prayer. Also there is no reason that one couldn&#8217;t make up their own program to use. For instance when I use the paternoster I have improvised by starting with an act of contrition and for the beads that separate the decades (set of ten beads) I pray the Hail Mary and recite the nicean creed. Though to be honest I really do think that people need to get past the whole anti mary thing&#8230; When I went post evangelical that was one of the first things I got past for the very simple reason that it was no different than anything else that got manipulated by Fundamentalists.</p>
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