Comments on: Abandoning the Public Square….again http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:47:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: R.J. Stevens http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-474 R.J. Stevens Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-474 Michael, I couldn't agree with you more on this. The Great Commission tells us to GO into all the world and preach the gospel, not to barricade ourselves amidst our Christian ghetto. If our churches were doing a better job of equipping our young people they wouldn't be overwhelmed by what is certainly a pagan culture. Instead, they would be transforming it. What's next for the SBC - are Christian employees to leave their secular occupations and go to work for Lifeway? We're called to be in the world and yet not of it. Paul didn't hunker down amongst the newly-formed churches but took Christ's gospel to the Greeks and Romans. We should go and do likewise. Michael, I couldn’t agree with you more on this. The Great Commission tells us to GO into all the world and preach the gospel, not to barricade ourselves amidst our Christian ghetto. If our churches were doing a better job of equipping our young people they wouldn’t be overwhelmed by what is certainly a pagan culture. Instead, they would be transforming it. What’s next for the SBC – are Christian employees to leave their secular occupations and go to work for Lifeway? We’re called to be in the world and yet not of it. Paul didn’t hunker down amongst the newly-formed churches but took Christ’s gospel to the Greeks and Romans. We should go and do likewise.

]]> By: Tom http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-475 Tom Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-475 Michael - I've been reading your blog for only a couple of weeks or so now and find it interesting. I'm sympathetic to your topics (rants?) more often than not. I have to differ with you on this one, however. As believers, taking our kids out of public schools is not abandoning the public arena. We homeschool our kids in part to equip them to deal with the realities of an increasingly secular society, but more so to ensure that they develop a Christian world view. Would subjecting them to an environment that is designed to be a spiritual vacuum (but is more often antagonistic) for the better part of each day somehow help them to develop a Christian world view? I believe not. I believe that our primary task as parents is to teach our children the things of God and ultimately to send them out into the world to be salt and light. This requires that we actively teach them while, yes, sheltering them from some things. I say "C'mon Christian parents. You can do better than sentencing your kids to the educational dumpster. Put your faith to work where you kids are and take responsibility for educating them in the privacy of your home so that they can be equiped for the service that Christ has prepared for them. Michael – I’ve been reading your blog for only a couple of weeks or so now and find it interesting. I’m sympathetic to your topics (rants?) more often than not.

I have to differ with you on this one, however. As believers, taking our kids out of public schools is not abandoning the public arena. We homeschool our kids in part to equip them to deal with the realities of an increasingly secular society, but
more so to ensure that they develop a Christian world view. Would subjecting them to an environment that is designed to be a spiritual vacuum (but is more often antagonistic) for the better part of each day somehow help them to develop a Christian world view? I believe not.

I believe that our primary task as parents is to teach our children the things of God and ultimately to send them out into the world to be salt and light. This requires that we actively teach them while, yes, sheltering them from some things. I say “C’mon Christian parents. You can do better than sentencing your kids to the educational dumpster. Put your faith to work where you kids are and take responsibility for educating them in the privacy of your home so that they can be equiped for the service that Christ has prepared for them.

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-476 iMonk Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-476 Tom, >You can do better than sentencing your kids to the educational dumpster. I have to tell you that statements like the above really sound odd to those of us in places where the PSs are filled with our Christian brothers and sisters, and the schools reflect the values of our communities. I've been around the country. I know there are some terrible public schools. ANd there are some wonderful public schools. Mischaracterizing PSs with hot rhetoric is my biggest problem with the HS movement right now. I could take anyone here to ten PS that are terrible and to ten that are awesome in every way. The simplistic diagnosis of the "abolish and withdraw" movement is amazing. If your PS choices were bad, I'm glad you were able to HS. Many of us don't have that problem. Many of us are glad for Christian teachers and good people in the PSs. Our neighbor sends her autistic daughter to a PS program for special needs kids. It's a gift of God for that family. HSing that child would drain that home and marriage beyond their ability to cope. Support all the good choices out there: PS, HS and Private. And save the rhetoric of the "dumpster" for the schools that deserve it. I get the kids whose HS and Church based school experiences were utter failures, so there are several dumpsters out there. Any education effort has them....as well as those that we can support. Thousands of Christians in PSs need our support, not our contempt. Tom,

>You can do better than sentencing your kids to the educational dumpster.

I have to tell you that statements like the above really sound odd to those of us in places where the PSs are filled with our Christian brothers and sisters, and the schools reflect the values of our communities.

I’ve been around the country. I know there are some terrible public schools. ANd there are some wonderful public schools. Mischaracterizing PSs with hot rhetoric is my biggest problem with the HS movement right now. I could take anyone here to ten PS that are terrible and to ten that are awesome in every way.

The simplistic diagnosis of the “abolish and withdraw” movement is amazing. If your PS choices were bad, I’m glad you were able to HS. Many of us don’t have that problem. Many of us are glad for Christian teachers and good people in the PSs. Our neighbor sends her autistic daughter to a PS program for special needs kids. It’s a gift of God for that family. HSing that child would drain that home and marriage beyond their ability to cope.

Support all the good choices out there: PS, HS and Private. And save the rhetoric of the “dumpster” for the schools that deserve it. I get the kids whose HS and Church based school experiences were utter failures, so there are several dumpsters out there. Any education effort has them….as well as those that we can support.

Thousands of Christians in PSs need our support, not our contempt.

]]> By: Sozo http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-477 Sozo Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-477 Can I join the rant? :-) I don't really care if a parent homeschools or public/private schools. If they've looked at all the options and have honestly decided what's best for their kid then more power to them. The issue I have is for people to suggest that one option is more "Christian" or "spiritual" than another. It becomes an issue of pride to say "We've decided to be missionaries." or "We're not subjecting our kids to pagan influences". (both said in that oh-so-meek spiritual tone) Scripture simply doesn't state(explicitly or implicitly) that one is preferrable over the other. And for the SBC(or whoever) to say that God is somehow on a certain side of the issue is to speak out of turn. Can I join the rant? :-)

I don’t really care if a parent homeschools or public/private schools. If they’ve looked at all the options and have honestly decided what’s best for their kid then more power to them.

The issue I have is for people to suggest that one option is more “Christian” or “spiritual” than another. It becomes an issue of pride to say “We’ve decided to be missionaries.” or “We’re not subjecting our kids to pagan influences”. (both said in that oh-so-meek spiritual tone)

Scripture simply doesn’t state(explicitly or implicitly) that one is preferrable over the other. And for the SBC(or whoever) to say that God is somehow on a certain side of the issue is to speak out of turn.

]]> By: Matt http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-478 Matt Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-478 Isn't there some middle ground here? Public schools are a mess, with teachers unions and tenure and leftism run amok. But homeschooling can harm the community. Imagine a community where everyone homeschooled and kids only saw each other at church: no high school football/basketball/baseball/softball, no prom, no drama club, no school newspaper. It's a bad idea. I think private/charter schools are a much better idea. I don't give a whit if Christians are involved in "public" (i.e. government) schools; I'm concerned with a sense of community, however it is achieved. One point to remember, and I've no doubt that Michael believes this: Public schools will never, ever get better without an end to the bureaucracy. We needn't let our support for them blind us from the realities. Isn’t there some middle ground here? Public schools are a mess, with teachers unions and tenure and leftism run amok. But homeschooling can harm the community. Imagine a community where everyone homeschooled and kids only saw each other at church: no high school football/basketball/baseball/softball, no prom, no drama club, no school newspaper. It’s a bad idea. I think private/charter schools are a much better idea. I don’t give a whit if Christians are involved in “public” (i.e. government) schools; I’m concerned with a sense of community, however it is achieved.

One point to remember, and I’ve no doubt that Michael believes this: Public schools will never, ever get better without an end to the bureaucracy. We needn’t let our support for them blind us from the realities.

]]> By: Travis http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-479 Travis Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-479 Michael, Why does a child have to be in PS to be on a community teen football team? Why does a school have to be government-run and government-funded to be a public school? And most importantly, why should I send my daughter into "spiritual warfare" of this type before she is spiritually mature enough for it? And why are you assuming that you're a better judge of her spiritually maturity than is the body of SBC pastors? [snip] We have a bunch of Southern Baptists and other evangelicals saying that because the public schools don't teach all their values, this community experience of education in the public square is not worthy of our support in any way. These people are saying- now get this- that it would be better to- under the banner of education- desert the public square in our communities in every way possible. [/snip] No, they're saying, "this community experience of [government-funded] education in the public square is not worthy of our support in any way." Besides, the main purpose of schooling is education, not socialization. You're ignoring whether or not these schools are properly educating. If, as spiritual leaders and parents themselves, the folks over in the SBC decide their children aren't being properly trained in that environment, they *should* pull them out and encourage others to do the same. Public schools are like Internet Explorer: they've got the popular vote, but the quality is horrendous and it's time to pursue a better alternative (in this case, homeschooling and Mozilla Firefox, respectively). We've tried to get improvements in both for years, but the Powers that Be aren't listening, so we're taking matters into our own hands. Michael,

Why does a child have to be in PS to be on a community teen football team?

Why does a school have to be government-run and government-funded to be a public school?

And most importantly, why should I send my daughter into “spiritual warfare” of this type before she is spiritually mature enough for it? And why are you assuming that you’re a better judge of her spiritually maturity than is the body of SBC pastors?

[snip]
We have a bunch of Southern Baptists and other evangelicals saying that because the public schools don’t teach all their values, this community experience of education in the public square is not worthy of our support in any way. These people are saying- now get this- that it would be better to- under the banner of education- desert the public square in our communities in every way possible.
[/snip]

No, they’re saying, “this community experience of [government-funded] education in the public square is not worthy of our support in any way.”

Besides, the main purpose of schooling is education, not socialization. You’re ignoring whether or not these schools are properly educating. If, as spiritual leaders and parents themselves, the folks over in the SBC decide their children aren’t being properly trained in that environment, they *should* pull them out and encourage others to do the same.

Public schools are like Internet Explorer: they’ve got the popular vote, but the quality is horrendous and it’s time to pursue a better alternative (in this case, homeschooling and Mozilla Firefox, respectively). We’ve tried to get improvements in both for years, but the Powers that Be aren’t listening, so we’re taking matters into our own hands.

]]> By: iMonk http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-480 iMonk Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-480 If you don't have any goals beyond education, please homeschool or find a church school that does what you desire. The fact is that most Americans value public school as one of the prime experiences of democratic society that allow us to keep this open, diverse, tolerant society up and running. But the Christians who don't want to share the public square with non-Christians or to have to be around pagans should withdraw. Please. You have my full support. If you believe there is no value in PSs, then I hope you will do the honest thing and oppose them. I hope that those of us who were blessed by God to attend a public school won't be ashamed to stand up against the caricatures, though. My school was not a leftist commie camp, but a great PS full of Christians and dedicated teachers. I probably should have stayed home with mom, but growing up in school really made me the person I am today, and I am proud to be a PS grad. If you don’t have any goals beyond education, please homeschool or find a church school that does what you desire. The fact is that most Americans value public school as one of the prime experiences of democratic society that allow us to keep this open, diverse, tolerant society up and running.

But the Christians who don’t want to share the public square with non-Christians or to have to be around pagans should withdraw. Please. You have my full support. If you believe there is no value in PSs, then I hope you will do the honest thing and oppose them.

I hope that those of us who were blessed by God to attend a public school won’t be ashamed to stand up against the caricatures, though. My school was not a leftist commie camp, but a great PS full of Christians and dedicated teachers. I probably should have stayed home with mom, but growing up in school really made me the person I am today, and I am proud to be a PS grad.

]]> By: jon http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-481 jon Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-481 I have finally been sucked into the debate Mike. I am writing as a homeschool parent of more than 9 years, with four children ages 5-14. We chose to homeschool for a number of reasons. We did not flee the public school system as some now advocate for "religious" reasons. We have come to enjoy this lifestyle choice. Our kids are completely in touch with the community on several different levels of sports activity and political involvement. We have found over the last few years that our church involvement has decreased as we have made a point to be a witness in our community and our kids have grown from this contact and served as a great influence with not only their peers, but adults they come into contact with. The one thing we have found that a large percentage of those withdrawing from the public school system to homeschool,(especially for "Religious" reasons), are ill prepared to complete the task and end up doing irreprable harm to their child/student. We do evaluate our decision on a regular basis and discuss whether our children would be better served to return to a PS classroom. As of today we are not convinced that our childrens best would be found in the PS. The arguement that the socialization issue is not met is a moot point if you provide the exposure to the "real" world on a regular basis. I have finally been sucked into the debate Mike. I am writing as a homeschool parent of more than 9 years, with four children ages 5-14. We chose to homeschool for a number of reasons. We did not flee the public school system as some now advocate for “religious” reasons. We have come to enjoy this lifestyle choice. Our kids are completely in touch with the community on several different levels of sports activity and political involvement. We have found over the last few years that our church involvement has decreased as we have made a point to be a witness in our community and our kids have grown from this contact and served as a great influence with not only their peers, but adults they come into contact with.

The one thing we have found that a large percentage of those withdrawing from the public school system to homeschool,(especially for “Religious” reasons), are ill prepared to complete the task and end up doing irreprable harm to their child/student. We do evaluate our decision on a regular basis and discuss whether our children would be better served to return to a PS classroom. As of today we are not convinced that our childrens best would be found in the PS. The arguement that the socialization issue is not met is a moot point if you provide the exposure to the “real” world on a regular basis.

]]> By: Matt http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-482 Matt Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-482 It seems like everyone is leaving out private schools. Private Schools often have the same extracuriccular activities going on, and there is still a sociel environment for kids to grow in. Yes, private schools cost money, but with vouchers and lower taxes, the tuition would be far easier to manage. I lean towards Michael's view, but private schools - which may or may not be religious - strike me as a good middle ground. Three other quick things: - The actual convention leaders of the SBC haven't made a full-tilt call for abandoning public schools - Not to sound like a legalist, but how is it a good thing to become less involved with church? - Community sports, great as they are, simply are not the same thing as school sports. It seems like everyone is leaving out private schools. Private Schools often have the same extracuriccular activities going on, and there is still a sociel environment for kids to grow in. Yes, private schools cost money, but with vouchers and lower taxes, the tuition would be far easier to manage. I lean towards Michael’s view, but private schools – which may or may not be religious – strike me as a good middle ground.

Three other quick things:
- The actual convention leaders of the SBC haven’t made a full-tilt call for abandoning public schools
- Not to sound like a legalist, but how is it a good thing to become less involved with church?
- Community sports, great as they are, simply are not the same thing as school sports.

]]> By: Diane R. http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/abandoning-the-public-squareagain/comment-page-1#comment-483 Diane R. Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/im.php/?p=90#comment-483 Hooray for you Michael. Preach it on! I have been saying exactly what you said for the past 25 years. I just do not understand why Chrisitans cannot seem to learn from history. They haven't learned anything from Prophibition about legislating morals. And now, they are making the very same mistake their earlier counterparts, the fundamentalists, made at the dawn of the 20th century--withdrawing. It isn't because prayer was taken out of the public schools that sank them (out here in So. California we never had any prayer or Bible reading in the public schools and we had the best schools in the country in the 1950's, 60's, and into the 70's). The main reason our country is in a mess is precisely because of what the fundamentalists allowed to happen because of their withdrawal from the public square. Michael..don't you dare refrain from saying these things over and over again..:) Diane R. Hooray for you Michael. Preach it on! I have been saying exactly what you said for the past 25 years. I just do not understand why Chrisitans cannot seem to learn from history. They haven’t learned anything from Prophibition about legislating morals. And now, they are making the very same mistake their earlier counterparts, the fundamentalists, made at the dawn of the 20th century–withdrawing.

It isn’t because prayer was taken out of the public schools that sank them (out here in So. California we never had any prayer or Bible reading in the public schools and we had the best schools in the country in the 1950′s, 60′s, and into the 70′s). The main reason our country is in a mess is precisely because of what the fundamentalists allowed to happen because of their withdrawal from the public square.

Michael..don’t you dare refrain from saying these things over and over again..:)

Diane R.

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