>….Everyone is born a heterosexual person.

I appreciate that this is your opinion, but I and many others do not agree.

As I said earlier, the experience of discovering same sex attraction is, in general, one where a person goes through agony, self-hatred, begging God for change, etc. Ignoring this, no matter what we believe, has deeply hurt our credibility.

If you want to believe this, that’s up to you. But millions of people living the experience disagree. It’s useless to debate it, and I cannot agree with you that the fall does not extend to fallen forms of sexual attraction.

The Bible’s view on sexual morality does not presuppose that everyone starts out at the same place.

ms

However. We are also to speak the truth, in love.

Homosexuality is a choice. I agree that some people grow up in circumstances that influence greatly that choice, but it’s still a choice. Everyone is born a heterosexual person, because that is how God created us as a human race. We are born into a SIN nature though, so we make choices throughout our life that are sinful. That is why we need Christ, all of us. If a gay person is shown the Truth, and accepts that, then God will work in their heart to help them stop committing the sin of homosexuality, along with their others sins, just as he works in the hearts of the rest of us and our sin, whatever that may be, from hatred, to idolatry, to adultery, etc. It’s all the same. Sin is sin.

However, on that note, we need to make sure that we talk about gay men, and that lifestyle, for what it truly is. Many people believe that most of them just keep to themselves and we should not intrude into that private area. I agree, as long as they aren’t hurting others. [MOD EDIT: I'm sorry Matt, but that sort of general statement just goes beyond what I want in the comments here at IM. I don't think making the majority of gay men into child molesters gets us anywhere but rightfully accused of ignoring heterosexual sins.]

I realize by writing this statement, I instantly attain homophobe status by people on both sides of the line. That is fine. Think what you will, but make sure you do your research before you etch that attitude in stone.

It’s of paramount importance that we heed Christ’s example and show His love to these people, regardless of their sinfulness. That doesn’t mean we should tolerate their behavior though, and allow it to harm others.

I did read the post on Marins book and I am going read it.

Thank you, I’ll calm down:)

To paraphase, it is easy to love those like ourselves even the evil do that. What separates Christians from the evil hatefilled prejudice person is we have a God who while we were still sinners died for us. No greater love.

I can go to Him in prayer for forgiveness of my own sins. And He will give me strenght to love those I find unacceptable to me. Through His act He has made unaccetable me acceptable to God.

I agree this conversation is difficult, but I think you’ve gone a bit overboard on both sides. Or someone has.

Christians do need to affirm that those who differ with them are not renouncing Christ. I believe sexuality (esp among males) is almost entirely genetic and I support civil unions. I would accept anyone as a Christian brother who affirms that Christ calls us to sexual faithfulness in marriage- as Biblically defined- and calls all of us to celibacy/marriage and repentance from sexual sin.

This isn’t the same position as other Christians, but it would be irrational at a very high level to say I am not a “brother” because I differ on some specifics.

I join you in deploring the “agree with all our views or be a hater” response, but I have to agree with Andrew Marin that a great deal of this seems to come from a very similar script where the agony of discovering one is gay is never heeded as legitimate while a person is a teenager, and the result of owning a gay identity is being put out of family and church. These experiences are so common, and so ignored by Christians, that I can see why they inspire a lot of anger.

Marin’s book does a wonderful job of showing us how to talk about this, and how to understand what we are talking about. No disrespect, but the Fox News version of gay/Christian dialog is the domain of people who have NO desire to listen to anyone, but just to commandeer attention and create havoc.

We can all do a lot better, on both sides, and I think many people are.

peace

ms

“>…the majority of the time when we are dealing with the Gay community you are dealing with people who are not saying “I have sin problem” but you are dealing with people who are saying “What I am doing is not a sin.”

1. Statements about the “majority” of gay persons are pretty meaningless. That’s how I talk when I want to tell you my opinion.

2. What do conservative Bible Belt Christians know about the “majority” of gays? What they saw on Fox news? I don’t see a lot of Dinner 8’s happening that include Gays.

>…Refering to people as being “gay” is not the same nor on the same road to refering to people as black, Jew, or Hispanic.

3. True. The point of my post is that it is less compatible with what we believe. It reduces people to a sex act and is dehumanizing. Hispanic doesn’t.

>…Homosexuality is a choice.

4. Like my choice to be attracted to women?

Either you have solved one of the great psych-biological debates of all time, or that’s your opinion again.”

I respond:

1. The majority of the gay community I deal with personaly, and have dealt with personaly say it is not a sin, as do a sizable portion of the responders on this blog.

2. Again the majority of the gay community I have experienced. Perhaps you have had a different experience than I and have encountered a majority of gays who admit their sinful lifestyle.

3. I think you point was like many to try to associtate the Civil Rights struggle of unchoosing minority groups with the agenda (ooo loaded word) of a action-defined minority.

4. I said that homosexaul activity is a choice. I fully admitted that there may be some due to all sorts of genetic or environmental situations so inclined, but the act of homosexuality is just that, an action committed by choice.

Monk, maybe debate has devolved because as much as someone like I may be at fault for over-labeling, I hear labels assigned to people who have a strong opinion about homosexuality and sin as if we’re gay haters. You posited an idea that we shouldn’t label and some disagree, and dare I say the ones who hate labeling, label themselves.

Listen, I thoroughly understand that homosexuality is only a bit piece of mankinds fall. I would say that the frustration arises when defense of homosexuality becomes evident. It is not defensible. It makes no difference whether by choice or disposition (which I’m pretty sure the latter exists). When I read people on your blog say they haven’t been convinced homosexuality is a sin especially in a committed relationship, I sit in my chair in near disbelief. An over-reaction against the terrible acts by some towards homosexuals is not excusable.

I know I get too excited at times and fire off comments that I wince at, but I wince more for those who are deceived by calling evil good and good evil. I believe they will be More accountable for their lack of discernment the ones they are purporting to protect.

I know that God’s mercy is more vast than I can fathom. He is able to cover sins stretching from beginning to end. Praise Him! But we cannot fall into a place where we dilute any sinful behavior for it cheapens the work of the cross.

Of course gays would be expected to have a natural enthusiasm for the issue, and their straight friends might be motivated out of a general concern for human rights. But what about the antis? Do they really think that this issue is clearer than other ones, or that it poses a greater threat to society and/or the church? Protestants in particular come from traditions in which individual believers are urged to interpret the Bible themselves–which makes it seems so odd that they should insist on this one issue (well, along with abortion and for some, perhaps creationism) so strongly.

I suspect that being pro- or anti-gay has itself become a marker of religious identity. Churches (and with them individual believers) have come to define themselves by this criterion, at least in part. So when these beliefs are challenged, they react with greater defensiveness and less openness than they would on other, equally significant and debatable issues.