Comments on: A Lord’s Supper Book for the Rest of Us: Making a Meal of It by Ben Witherington III http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii ...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:48:13 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Michael Spencer http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-157656 Michael Spencer Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:12:25 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-157656 OK. I've had it. Not with the comments I'm allowing, but with the ones I am not posting. I just got my third message of "Since you're not Catholic, how do you now anything you believe is true?" When I write "How my mind has changed about Roman Catholicism," you people can consider it dedicated to you. Amazing. OK. I’ve had it. Not with the comments I’m allowing, but with the ones I am not posting.

I just got my third message of “Since you’re not Catholic, how do you now anything you believe is true?”

When I write “How my mind has changed about Roman Catholicism,” you people can consider it dedicated to you.

Amazing.

]]> By: Nicholas Anton http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-157584 Nicholas Anton Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:03:42 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-157584 The True Church should be the Hebrew mind fulfilled in Christ, the Greco-Roman mind reborn in Christ, and not the Christian mind remolded by Rome (Empire, not church), which is precisely what happened after 70 A.D. to form the Roman Church. If we see the Lord’s Table from the pre Roman, Hebrew perspective, it becomes a family affair regularly enjoyed by the church, rather than a bureaucratic institution. The True Church should be the Hebrew mind fulfilled in Christ, the Greco-Roman mind reborn in Christ, and not the Christian mind remolded by Rome (Empire, not church), which is precisely what happened after 70 A.D. to form the Roman Church. If we see the Lord’s Table from the pre Roman, Hebrew perspective, it becomes a family affair regularly enjoyed by the church, rather than a bureaucratic institution.

]]> By: Rev Sam http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-157574 Rev Sam Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:46:38 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-157574 A question about the book (which I've now ordered) - does he engage with Margaret Barker's work? I'll have a search on his blog site to try and find out an answer as well. (Barker is also a Methodist, but it sounds like she has the polar opposite perspective to BW3) A question about the book (which I’ve now ordered) – does he engage with Margaret Barker’s work? I’ll have a search on his blog site to try and find out an answer as well. (Barker is also a Methodist, but it sounds like she has the polar opposite perspective to BW3)

]]> By: fr. Peter http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-157495 fr. Peter Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:13:19 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-157495 Does Witherington interact with The Epistle to the Hebrews in his discussion? Specifically, in terms of the liturgy being a reflection of temple worship that is happeing in the heavenlies? BW3 is good guy by the way. Had him for a class on Acts while at Asbury Seminary. We had to read his commentary on Acts, so he did not take the time to lecture through each passage. Instead he spent the classes preaching Acts to us. We could have had an altar call every day! BW3 is a motivated, inspiring and serious Christian man. Does Witherington interact with The Epistle to the Hebrews in his discussion? Specifically, in terms of the liturgy being a reflection of temple worship that is happeing in the heavenlies?

BW3 is good guy by the way. Had him for a class on Acts while at Asbury Seminary. We had to read his commentary on Acts, so he did not take the time to lecture through each passage. Instead he spent the classes preaching Acts to us. We could have had an altar call every day! BW3 is a motivated, inspiring and serious Christian man.

]]> By: joe http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-157229 joe Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:36:01 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-157229 O'Connor's quote is absurd: If the eucharist is a symbol ordained by God, then who are we to say the hell with it? Symbols matter. If only because they are symbols, in this case, of the most important reality in the world. Whether they become what they signify is secondary, since that *what* already exists in the person of Christ. Her dinner table dramatics are good rhetoric but lousy logic. Typical for a novelist, even a very good one. O’Connor’s quote is absurd: If the eucharist is a symbol ordained by God, then who are we to say the hell with it? Symbols matter. If only because they are symbols, in this case, of the most important reality in the world. Whether they become what they signify is secondary, since that *what* already exists in the person of Christ. Her dinner table dramatics are good rhetoric but lousy logic. Typical for a novelist, even a very good one.

]]> By: Eric http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-157164 Eric Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:57:23 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-157164 There is a great quote from Witherington on his blog ( http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/) in “The Word as Sacrament” post: “This brings me to a crucial point. Every Christian needs a more sacramental, and sanctified life than they currently have, even if you are in a church that downplays the traditional sacraments. There is one thing you can do about that every day—add more Word to your diet! I promise it will be beneficial in many ways. Unlike Special K, Special W (the Word), really is special.” There is a great quote from Witherington on his blog ( http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/) in “The Word as Sacrament” post:

“This brings me to a crucial point. Every Christian needs a more sacramental, and sanctified life than they currently have, even if you are in a church that downplays the traditional sacraments. There is one thing you can do about that every day—add more Word to your diet! I promise it will be beneficial in many ways. Unlike Special K, Special W (the Word), really is special.”

]]> By: Patrick Kyle http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-157162 Patrick Kyle Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:53:45 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-157162 Josh S As an interesting aside, in Volume 53(pg 63-64) of Luther's works, Luther, in a discussion on various types of church services says " The third kind of service should be a truly evangelical order and should not be held in a public place for all sorts of people. But those who want to be Christians in earnest and who profess the gospel with hand and mouth should sign their names and meet alone in a house to pray, to read, to baptize, to receive the sacraments, and to do other Christian works." He goes on to discuss a simple liturgy, church discipline and training young people for evangelism, and says he won't do it of himself for his own need because it might result in a sect. He says "For we Germans are a rough,rude and reckless people,with whom it is hard to do anything, except in cases of dire need." I need to check out Witherington's book. I have long suspected that returning the LS to a house/meal setting might be of great value, and there really is nothing in Scriptures or the Lutheran Confessions that would prohibit it. Josh S

As an interesting aside, in Volume 53(pg 63-64) of Luther’s works, Luther, in a discussion on various types of church services says ” The third kind of service should be a truly evangelical order and should not be held in a public place for all sorts of people. But those who want to be Christians in earnest and who profess the gospel with hand and mouth should sign their names and meet alone in a house to pray, to read, to baptize, to receive the sacraments, and to do other Christian works.” He goes on to discuss a simple liturgy, church discipline and training young people for evangelism, and says he won’t do it of himself for his own need because it might result in a sect. He says “For we Germans are a rough,rude and reckless people,with whom it is hard to do anything, except in cases of dire need.”

I need to check out Witherington’s book. I have long suspected that returning the LS to a house/meal setting might be of great value, and there really is nothing in Scriptures or the Lutheran Confessions that would prohibit it.

]]> By: Daniel McLain Hixon http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-157060 Daniel McLain Hixon Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:48:40 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-157060 Hmm...interesting comments. I'm a Wesleyan with some Anglo-catholic leanings. The Wesleys were both influenced by the Reformed view of Sacraments, and also held a very high view of the Real Presence of Christ in the Communion (understood as "presence, but not transubstantiation"). The United Methodist Church's own liturgy calls on the Holy Spirit to "make them [bread and wine] be for us the body and blood of Christ..." which is, a pretty high view, no matter how you qualify it. I wonder if Witherington (a Methodist) holds as high a view so as to sing with Charles Wesley "Come and partake the gospel feast, be saved from sin, in Jesus rest; O taste the goodness of our God, and eat his flesh and drink his blood." (Come, Sinners, to the Gospel feast, Hymnal # 616); what do you think (since you've read his book)? Also, I was also fairly certain that (with various free-church traditions) the Baptists by and large DID reject explicitly the language of sacraments which is shared by Roman Catholics and Protestants of the Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican (including Wesleyans) traditions. I think the Eastern Church does not typically speak of "sacraments" at all, but of "mysteries." Hmm…interesting comments. I’m a Wesleyan with some Anglo-catholic leanings. The Wesleys were both influenced by the Reformed view of Sacraments, and also held a very high view of the Real Presence of Christ in the Communion (understood as “presence, but not transubstantiation”). The United Methodist Church’s own liturgy calls on the Holy Spirit to “make them [bread and wine] be for us the body and blood of Christ…” which is, a pretty high view, no matter how you qualify it. I wonder if Witherington (a Methodist) holds as high a view so as to sing with Charles Wesley

“Come and partake the gospel feast,
be saved from sin, in Jesus rest;
O taste the goodness of our God,
and eat his flesh and drink his blood.”

(Come, Sinners, to the Gospel feast, Hymnal # 616); what do you think (since you’ve read his book)?

Also, I was also fairly certain that (with various free-church traditions) the Baptists by and large DID reject explicitly the language of sacraments which is shared by Roman Catholics and Protestants of the Lutheran, Reformed, and Anglican (including Wesleyans) traditions. I think the Eastern Church does not typically speak of “sacraments” at all, but of “mysteries.”

]]> By: Josh S http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-156989 Josh S Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:36:05 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-156989 Michael thanks for saying I don't have to become a Baptist...my left pinky toe had just dissolved, and I was worried what would happen next. Michael thanks for saying I don’t have to become a Baptist…my left pinky toe had just dissolved, and I was worried what would happen next.

]]> By: Brett S http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii/comment-page-1#comment-156908 Brett S Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:13:55 +0000 http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-lords-supper-book-for-the-rest-of-us-making-a-meal-of-it-by-ben-witherington-iii#comment-156908 Michael, I've been reading your blog for a few months now, and I can't thank you enough for the inspiration you have been to me on my Christian walk. It is a shame that you have encountered overzealous Catholic apologetics on a host of issues. The Eucharist is not something that can be proved, verified, debated, or anyone conviced about; but for faithful Catholics the Eucharist is the "source and summit of Christian life". If the Eucharist is not Real, none of this other stuff really matters (mary, justification, sanctification, sola scriptura, etc). I think some Catholics just have a hard time dealing with the natural frustation that there's nothing we can say to make anyone believe, and a real sadness in seeing other Christians apart from the Eucharist. I think [Flannery O'Conner] described it best: ". . . Having me there was like having a dog present who had been trained to say a few words but overcome with inadequacy had forgotten them. Well, toward morning the conversation turned on the Eucharist, which I, being the Catholic, was obviously supposed to defend. Mrs. Broadwater said when she was a child and received the host, she thought of it as the Holy Ghost, He being the most portable person of the Trinity; now she thought of it as a symbol and implied that it was a pretty good one. I then said, in a very shaky voice, Well, if it's a symbol, to hell with it. That was all the defense I was capable of but I realize now that this is all I will ever be able to say about it, outside of a story, except that it is the center of existence for me; all the rest of life is expendable." Michael,

I’ve been reading your blog for a few months now, and I can’t thank you enough for the inspiration you have been to me on my Christian walk. It is a shame that you have encountered overzealous Catholic apologetics on a host of issues.

The Eucharist is not something that can be proved, verified, debated, or anyone conviced about; but for faithful Catholics the Eucharist is the “source and summit of Christian life”. If the Eucharist is not Real, none of this other stuff really matters (mary, justification, sanctification, sola scriptura, etc).
I think some Catholics just have a hard time dealing with the natural frustation that there’s nothing we can say to make anyone believe, and a real sadness in seeing other Christians apart from the Eucharist.

I think [Flannery O'Conner] described it best:
“. . . Having me there was like having a dog present who had been trained to say a few words but overcome with inadequacy had forgotten them.
Well, toward morning the conversation turned on the Eucharist, which I, being the Catholic, was obviously supposed to defend. Mrs. Broadwater said when she was a child and received the host, she thought of it as the Holy Ghost, He being the most portable person of the Trinity; now she thought of it as a symbol and implied that it was a pretty good one. I then said, in a very shaky voice, Well, if it’s a symbol, to hell with it.
That was all the defense I was capable of but I realize now that this is all I will ever be able to say about it, outside of a story, except that it is the center of existence for me; all the rest of life is expendable.”

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