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	<title>Comments on: A Generous Catholicity</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Chad Winters</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-127289</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Winters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-127289</guid>
		<description>canonization was only a formal recognizing of the NT scriptures that the church had been using for hundreds of years. It is incorrect to say that the early church did not have NT scriptures just because formal church council canonization did not happen until later. It is clear that early church fathers considered hte epistles and gospels that were later canonized to be Scripture</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>canonization was only a formal recognizing of the NT scriptures that the church had been using for hundreds of years. It is incorrect to say that the early church did not have NT scriptures just because formal church council canonization did not happen until later. It is clear that early church fathers considered hte epistles and gospels that were later canonized to be Scripture</p>
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		<title>By: Memphis Aggie</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-127270</link>
		<dc:creator>Memphis Aggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-127270</guid>
		<description>If  I can comment as a Catholic, we believe that all Baptisms made in the name of the Holy Trinity are valid. In practice this means that almost all Protestants (excluding only those with radical non-trinitarian theology) are brothers and sisters in Christ. 

However, we don&#039;t hold to baptism as a eternal assurance of salvation, that&#039;s called &quot;presumption&quot; in the Catholic Church.  Certainly I like the idea of a guarantee (who wouldn&#039;t?) but I reluctantly recognize that I function as a better Christian without it.  The fear of the loss of grace forces me to re-examine my conduct and to submit more of my will and pride to Christ.  I&#039;d love to say I come to Christ wholly out of love for His righteousness but, if I&#039;m honest, I recognize that I am also motivated by fear.  I fear that my own weakness could lead me to sin again.  This recognition keeps my head bowed and my knees bent.  If I believe I had a &quot;guarantee&quot; I might be tempted to be lax. So I trust in Christ but not in my flawed self.  

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the origin of the &quot;eternal assurance&quot;?  Is that a Calvinist doctrine?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If  I can comment as a Catholic, we believe that all Baptisms made in the name of the Holy Trinity are valid. In practice this means that almost all Protestants (excluding only those with radical non-trinitarian theology) are brothers and sisters in Christ. </p>
<p>However, we don&#8217;t hold to baptism as a eternal assurance of salvation, that&#8217;s called &#8220;presumption&#8221; in the Catholic Church.  Certainly I like the idea of a guarantee (who wouldn&#8217;t?) but I reluctantly recognize that I function as a better Christian without it.  The fear of the loss of grace forces me to re-examine my conduct and to submit more of my will and pride to Christ.  I&#8217;d love to say I come to Christ wholly out of love for His righteousness but, if I&#8217;m honest, I recognize that I am also motivated by fear.  I fear that my own weakness could lead me to sin again.  This recognition keeps my head bowed and my knees bent.  If I believe I had a &#8220;guarantee&#8221; I might be tempted to be lax. So I trust in Christ but not in my flawed self.  </p>
<p>Forgive my ignorance, but what is the origin of the &#8220;eternal assurance&#8221;?  Is that a Calvinist doctrine?</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-127134</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 00:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-127134</guid>
		<description>I have a small quibble with this:  &quot;Its only rule of faith and practice–THE BIBLE. (II Tim. 3:15-17)&quot;  These verses were written within the first 100 years after Christ&#039;s death.  Since the Bible was not cannonized until the 300s, the verses and scripture it MUST be referring to is the Old Testiment.  Thus, this cite is a poor choice to support sola scriptura.

Otherwise, well written.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a small quibble with this:  &#8220;Its only rule of faith and practice–THE BIBLE. (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=2+Tim.+3%3A15-17" class="bibleref" title="ESV 2Tim 3:15-17">II Tim. 3:15-17</a>)&#8221;  These verses were written within the first 100 years after Christ&#8217;s death.  Since the Bible was not cannonized until the 300s, the verses and scripture it MUST be referring to is the Old Testiment.  Thus, this cite is a poor choice to support sola scriptura.</p>
<p>Otherwise, well written.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-127079</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-127079</guid>
		<description>Now, what prompted the resumption of comments to this thread?

Anyway, I&#039;d like to suggest that &quot;catholic&quot; in the creed has the connotation of whole at least as much as the connotation of universal (and these two have different senses in modern English popular usage, I think). To give a non-Catholic citation for that, my concise Oxford dictionary has:

[ME, f OF catholique or f. LL f. Gk katholikos universal f. cath&#039; holou in general (kata in  respect of, holos whole)]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now, what prompted the resumption of comments to this thread?</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;d like to suggest that &#8220;catholic&#8221; in the creed has the connotation of whole at least as much as the connotation of universal (and these two have different senses in modern English popular usage, I think). To give a non-Catholic citation for that, my concise Oxford dictionary has:</p>
<p>[ME, f OF catholique or f. LL f. Gk katholikos universal f. cath' holou in general (kata in  respect of, holos whole)]</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-127032</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-127032</guid>
		<description>Can anyone say &quot;Donatism&quot; -- except in a SBC corporate fashion. Didn&#039;t the early church already thrash that idea? If Donatism was, in essence, the idea that the efficacy of a person&#039;s salvation was contingent upon the personal and theological holiness of the minister -- isn&#039;t that what the SBC is doing then, just on a corporate, denominational basis? I don&#039;t know much about the SBC, just what I got in the article, but just a thought that I had about it....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can anyone say &#8220;Donatism&#8221; &#8212; except in a SBC corporate fashion. Didn&#8217;t the early church already thrash that idea? If Donatism was, in essence, the idea that the efficacy of a person&#8217;s salvation was contingent upon the personal and theological holiness of the minister &#8212; isn&#8217;t that what the SBC is doing then, just on a corporate, denominational basis? I don&#8217;t know much about the SBC, just what I got in the article, but just a thought that I had about it&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Lindsey @ ETJ</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-127030</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsey @ ETJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-127030</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve spent 6 years in the SBC after being raised Quaker for 25+ years.  I have been shocked and astonished at some of the things I&#039;ve heard behind closed doors.

While no SBC church is going to say outloud that they are the &quot;only church&quot; the very sad fact is that most of them are THINKING it if they&#039;re not downright saying it to your face.

We have since left the SBC and we are in the midst of wondering in the wilderness, not sure where we&#039;ll end up.  Personally, even though I&#039;m a Christian and know the &quot;forsake not the assembly of the saints&quot; bit quite well, I could care less to ever step foot in a traditional church again.  The backbiting and arguing about who we are and how we &quot;do&quot; church is sickening to me.  Half the blogs I read are fighting with one another on the emergent church movement.

I wrote about something similar today on my blog.  In a nutshell, when it comes to church and religion I don&#039;t fit in anywhere nicely. I&#039;m too liberal for the conservatives, and too conservative for the liberals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve spent 6 years in the SBC after being raised Quaker for 25+ years.  I have been shocked and astonished at some of the things I&#8217;ve heard behind closed doors.</p>
<p>While no SBC church is going to say outloud that they are the &#8220;only church&#8221; the very sad fact is that most of them are THINKING it if they&#8217;re not downright saying it to your face.</p>
<p>We have since left the SBC and we are in the midst of wondering in the wilderness, not sure where we&#8217;ll end up.  Personally, even though I&#8217;m a Christian and know the &#8220;forsake not the assembly of the saints&#8221; bit quite well, I could care less to ever step foot in a traditional church again.  The backbiting and arguing about who we are and how we &#8220;do&#8221; church is sickening to me.  Half the blogs I read are fighting with one another on the emergent church movement.</p>
<p>I wrote about something similar today on my blog.  In a nutshell, when it comes to church and religion I don&#8217;t fit in anywhere nicely. I&#8217;m too liberal for the conservatives, and too conservative for the liberals.</p>
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		<title>By: Custard.</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-126972</link>
		<dc:creator>Custard.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-126972</guid>
		<description>Man, those guys need to read &lt;a href=&quot;http://custardy.blogspot.com/2007/06/richard-hooker.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Richard Hooker&lt;/a&gt;. Except they&#039;d need him to be a Baptist, not a 16th century English Anglican Evangelical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, those guys need to read <a href="http://custardy.blogspot.com/2007/06/richard-hooker.html" rel="nofollow">Richard Hooker</a>. Except they&#8217;d need him to be a Baptist, not a 16th century English Anglican Evangelical.</p>
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		<title>By: terri</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-126894</link>
		<dc:creator>terri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-126894</guid>
		<description>I was SBC for a while...attended an SBC University also.  I never heard it said that Baptists were the only true church.  There was a certain amount of smugness that SBC was the closest in truth, but never an outright condemnation of other denominations.

I briefly dated a Church of Christ boy/man...briefly because I soon realized how restrictive they were in their views about others and where they stood with Christ(which was nowhere, in their view.)

I do wonder how mind-blowing it would be for some people to travel back in time to see the 1st and 2nd century churches and compare them with what we currently believe and practice today.  I think most everyone who believes that their denomination is a &quot;return&quot; to the early church would be surprised and shocked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was SBC for a while&#8230;attended an SBC University also.  I never heard it said that Baptists were the only true church.  There was a certain amount of smugness that SBC was the closest in truth, but never an outright condemnation of other denominations.</p>
<p>I briefly dated a Church of Christ boy/man&#8230;briefly because I soon realized how restrictive they were in their views about others and where they stood with Christ(which was nowhere, in their view.)</p>
<p>I do wonder how mind-blowing it would be for some people to travel back in time to see the 1st and 2nd century churches and compare them with what we currently believe and practice today.  I think most everyone who believes that their denomination is a &#8220;return&#8221; to the early church would be surprised and shocked.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah Lawson</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-5394</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah Lawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:51:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-5394</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve met some people who are insistent that there is no &quot;big C&quot; church other than a metaphor for the sum total of individuals who happen to be Christians and that God&#039;s relationship to mankind is only on the basis of His saving interaction with individuals.  Exactly how a person gets that idea out of the Bible is utterly beyond me but it seems to be an attempt to avoid &quot;creeping Catholic heresies&quot; about how to define what a church is.  My problem with this sort of definition of the church is that sum total of individual Christians in any given area would, I hope, have the Holy Spirit in common.  If we share the Holy Spirit as the seal of our salvation doesn&#039;t that make us slightly more than &quot;just&quot; the individual Christians who happen to meet at the same location at least once a week to read from Scripture?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve met some people who are insistent that there is no &#8220;big C&#8221; church other than a metaphor for the sum total of individuals who happen to be Christians and that God&#8217;s relationship to mankind is only on the basis of His saving interaction with individuals.  Exactly how a person gets that idea out of the Bible is utterly beyond me but it seems to be an attempt to avoid &#8220;creeping Catholic heresies&#8221; about how to define what a church is.  My problem with this sort of definition of the church is that sum total of individual Christians in any given area would, I hope, have the Holy Spirit in common.  If we share the Holy Spirit as the seal of our salvation doesn&#8217;t that make us slightly more than &#8220;just&#8221; the individual Christians who happen to meet at the same location at least once a week to read from Scripture?</p>
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		<title>By: Melora</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity/comment-page-1#comment-5374</link>
		<dc:creator>Melora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/a-generous-catholicity#comment-5374</guid>
		<description>What an eye-opener this was for me.  I&#039;ve never belonged to any other than the Episcopal church, and I had no idea that Baptists viewed other churches as &quot;un-Christian.&quot;  We are homeschoolers, and live in an area with lots of Baptists and evangelicals, and, thankfully, no one has ever expressed this thinking to me.  Now I wonder is it is because we are below the Bible Belt in Florida, or because the people I spend time with have nice manners.  I Love the creeds, and the idea of a &quot;catholic&quot; church.  
Your article was interesting, though depressing.
Cordially,
Melora</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an eye-opener this was for me.  I&#8217;ve never belonged to any other than the Episcopal church, and I had no idea that Baptists viewed other churches as &#8220;un-Christian.&#8221;  We are homeschoolers, and live in an area with lots of Baptists and evangelicals, and, thankfully, no one has ever expressed this thinking to me.  Now I wonder is it is because we are below the Bible Belt in Florida, or because the people I spend time with have nice manners.  I Love the creeds, and the idea of a &#8220;catholic&#8221; church.<br />
Your article was interesting, though depressing.<br />
Cordially,<br />
Melora</p>
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