December 21, 2014

The Prophets Speak!

Joyner

After reading this morning’s post and participating in the discussion, alert reader Randy sent a link to the following article in Charisma, dated yesterday: “Rick Joyner Predicts Destruction of Republic, Third Great Awakening.”

The article includes this breathtaking passage:

As Joyner sees it, no election is going to fix America’s problems because the system is broken. He believes our only hope is a military takeover—martial law.

“I believe there are noble leaders in our military that love the republic and love everything we stand for—and they could seize the government,” he said. “I am not advocating this. I am just telling you what could happen. They could seize it and help restore the foundations, help restore the Constitution.”

It also says this:

Joyner also predicted an “inevitable” collapse of the U.S. dollar but said it could lead to a jubilee—a new beginning if the right people are in leadership. His conclusion? We have to turn back to God as a nation.

What I find fascinating is that the author of the piece goes on to say: I don’t really know how to respond to this, but what I can do is share a prophecy God gave me a few years ago!

God reportedly said to her:

Yes, there is a great awakening coming to this nation. I am the Author of it, and I will bring it to pass. Just turn from your wicked ways and humble yourselves. Stand in the gap, and make up the hedge. I am the Lord, and I am a warrior. I will not leave or forsake this country. I will fight through you and with you to regain what has been lost.

Ok then.

The article concludes with this set of amazing questions:

What is the Lord saying to you about the hour we’re in? Is America heading for destruction? Is a Third Great Awakening eminent [sic]? Or both?

I wonder what kind of discussion we’d get on Internet Monk if we had an Open Mic on those doozies!

Comments

  1. This could have been headlined, for more clarity,

    “The eminent Rick Joyner predicts imminent destruction by an immanent God.”

  2. What the!!!

    Why can’t people stop equating the wholesale success their version of politics with God’s blessing, a revival, or showing everybody that God loves America.

    This Dominionism stuff is deeply troubling.

  3. If the Constitution needs to be restored, when was it lost?

  4. The first Great Awakening was questionable. The second was terrible. A third one might just end Christianity for good.

    • I am with you on that. At least, it would make American Christianity completely American and un-Christian.

    • Wait, there were 2 Great Awakenings in America??? Which one did I miss?

      • Richard Hershberger says:

        Serious question? The First Great Awakening occurred in the 1720s and ’30s. And yes, it included the British colonies in America. This is where we get the emphasis on religion as a personal and emotional experience. Of course this strain of Christianity goes back far, far earlier, but it was not generally a major part of the religious establishment.

        The Second Great Awakening started around 1790 or so and ran for perhaps a half century. It was a revival movement aimed at the unchurched. This is where the Baptists and the Methodists grew into huge denominations (using that word loosely).

        Some historians also list a Third Great Awakening in the latter half of the 19th century. It combined postmillenialism with social gospel, which seems like a weird combination today but didn’t then. Both the abolitionist movement and prohibition come out of this.

        • Thanks Richard Hershberger, but I don’t think the 1720 – 30s revival made it to Canada (well what is today Canada, back then was either French or British), Canada never had a large spiritual revival movement (or at least that was what we were taught in history class and the fact was lamented in charismatic circles).

          So the first one wasn’t a revival but a personalization of the faith? Was the second one lead/started by the Wesley brothers?

    • Absolutely true.

      I cringe every time I hear the word revival as well. We don’t need revival, or an awakening. We need a reformation.

  5. I remember reading about an Athonite elder being interviewed on European TV. The young man (Orthodox – the elder would not speak to a non-Orthodox journalist) interviewing him wanted him to speak about prophecies concerning Greece, the European Union, and the Middle East. The elder wanted to talk about the prayer of the heart and repentance.

    A great opportunity wasted.

    Repentance. I require repentance from My people who have through the generations allowed the enemy to take ground in this nation. I require repentance for the abortions and for the prayerlessness. I require repentance for the apathy and for the idolatry. You shall have no other gods before Me. I am indeed the God of America.

    I cannot fault Mr. Joyner for this. I haven’t caused any abortions, but the other three are bad enough, if not worse. Gospodi pomului

  6. I know this wasn’t the point of this post- but seriously, i get annoyed when people say that God speaks to them, and then give specifics about what will most likely happen because of what God told them. It reminds me of the Michael Spencer post about being weary of ‘weird Christians’ who seem to say that God talks to them about everything from their choice of toilet paper all the way to parking spots.
    I don’t hear voices from God- and that caused a lot of doubt for me for a long time, still does occasionally. I remember hearing a quote from Mother Theresa, something to the effect of “silence is the language God speaks, everything else is a bad translation.”
    Also, the ‘prophesy’ of Joyner takes the role to some degree of describing America as if it’s a modern day children of Israel. America is not Christian. Human beings can be Christian, a country is not Christian. Christians can repent. America as a country can’t really repent. Of course, it’s possible they meant American Christians.

  7. What the reporter said there looks right. It sounds like the OT prophets and it sounds like what God says to every generation. He is always calling us to repentance.

    What Joyner says otoh… “…there are some noble leaders in our military… they could seize the government…”. What would be noble about a military takeover?

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      The Noble Military Junta would be holding up their Bibles, that’s what.

      Build the Christian Nation on the point of the bayonet.

  8. David Cornwell says:

    We need to forget the idea that we are a chosen nation, and concentrate on the idea that we, you and I, are chosen by Christ. And a verse I’d recommend, would be 1 Corinthians 1:27-29:

    “But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks weak to shame the strong. God chose what is low and despised in the world, what is regarded as nothing, to set aside what is regarded as something, so that no one can boast in his presence”.

    Then start being good citizens and forget grandiose schemes. One of the things I have learned about alcoholics is the tendency toward grandiosity. Some of these people are intoxicated by the voices they claim to hear and the schemes so produced.

    If we should have a military takeover they won’t be returning us to God. I’d definitely not want to be in the hands of today’s evangelists. Nor a combination. Maybe Franklin Graham and Gen. William “Jerry” Boykin? Wow. Is Canada safe these days?

  9. Where do you dig these people up?

    • This guy has quite a presence where I live. His church is in South Carolina just outside Charlotte, NC. I’ve actually been to it and watched him preach, back when he was vigorously endorsing Todd Bentley a. He’s nationally famous in third wave charismatic circles , so much that he’s nearly an institution. And he’s implicitly trusted by thousands of these people. “Prophecy” off the deep end. It’s scary.

      • My outsider’s take: I tend to agree here. Mike Bickle (IHOP dude) is not nearly as “out there” IMO, but will hand the mike (pardon the pun) over to Joyner in a heartbeat, and Joyner seems to come and go as big prophet guy at conferences and such. Bickle does not seem to be anywhere near as political as Joyner and friends, at least his “prophecies” seem more about the latest version of the best end times genereation ever, and less about some kind of american restorationism.

        To your point, it’s scary how someone, anyone, could have that much social/religious ‘swag’, and not have to answer for himself to some kind of neutral source. And Lou Engle might be more fringe than Joyner, same kind of carte blanche….

  10. “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

    — attributed to Sinclair Lewis.

    I no longer wonder how this could happen.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      Not Sinclair Lewis.
      Bob Heinlein.

      How many of you recognize the name “Nehemiah Scudder”?

  11. Joseph (the original) says:

    kook. crazy uncle. sadly deluded by his own vain imaginings…

    {sigh}

    move along. nothing to see/hear/read here…

    Lord…have mercy… :(

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      “Crazy Uncle Kook, he got GAWD on his side,
      He got his pet Emma angels backin’ up from behind…”
      — just filking the Eurythmics

  12. We have a few of them in my denomination. Wish more of us called them on their rotten fruit instead of letting them have free passes because they’re so nice. It’s like letting the kleptomaniac, whom you’ve just forgiven again, man the cash register.

  13. If the author doesn’t know what to think of Rick Joyner’s prophecy, consider:

    1) His church created the “Holy Ghost Hokey Pokey” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs2CJlCO0rE

    2) He still wants you to take Todd Bentley seriously, using “prophecies” to explain away the whole circus.

    That the author (at Charisma, not Chaplain Mike) isn’t laughing this out of the room is a sign of a serious sickness.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      With his gushing about a Noble military takeover, does that mean we will be made to take Todd Bentley seriously at the point of a bayonet? “SHEEKA BOOM BAH! BAM!”

    • Juatin – exactly!

      rick Joyner and his cronies (at Morningstar as well as in the rest of the NAR “prophet” network) is not just seriously deluded. he and those people who have aligned themselves with him are very, *very* involved in politics, on all levls.

      As with chaplain Mike’s previous post (on Ted Cruz and his father, Rafael), this is a much-needed call-out on Joyner and his assertions.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      This is the guy behind the “Holy Ghost Hokey Pokey”?

      AKA “De Loa mount deir horses and ride, ride, ride”?

      All that remains is for the guy behind “You Spin Me Right Round Right Round JEESUS Right Round” to get on board. New Improved 67th Book of the Bible, on the way!

  14. Anonymously Yours says:

    If we were having this discussion at the turn of the Twentieth Century, instead of the turn of the Twenty-First, and a famous preacher prophesied that two world wars would lead to the deaths of multiple tens of millions, followed by the rise of totalitarianism and the implementation of weapons of war that could level entire cities within an hour, and then lead on to the disintegration of half of the West’s families while tens of millions of babies were murdered by their own mothers…would you have believed that preacher?

    I do not believe America will last much longer.

    • But that preacher would not have existed, because God does not reveal these things to people like this. If he does, I’d like to hear a specific example that really holds up. I have my doubts I’ll be hearing back.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      And if America does survive, will you be sitting under your giant gourd and sulking?

      • What a great comment! Mr. Guy makes me glad Al Gore invented the internet (joke). That bit in Jonah puts a chill up my spine every time. Mr. My-Country-Right-Or-Wrong points his finger accusingly at his Creator (?!) and says, “I KNEW this would happen! I KNEW you are a loving God, quick to forgive! That’s why I ran to Tarshish, you sucker!!”

      • Anonymously Yours says:

        I used to be a sit-under-the-gourd-and-sulk kind of guy. I think America may fall apart economically, followed by politically, like the Soviet Union. (How many of you thought that was going to happen?) But, absent invasion or a massive nuclear attack, we still will be here, just as the citizens of Russia and the former Soviet republics are still there…with the caveat that I believe it is possible that, if America does fall apart politically, and there is confusion about who sits at the switch of the country’s nuclear defenses, Russia and/or China may launch a massive nuclear attack against America to make sure, once she has fallen down, she never gets up again.

        • Reminds me of that bit in Hemingway, where buddy is asked, how did you go bankrupt? and says, ‘Gradually, then suddenly.’ One thing that every fallen empire does have in common is, the red flags that seem so obvious to posterity weren’t seen by the people at the time, they just could not believe that something so cataclysmic would happen on their watch. ‘Let the good times roll’ as they always have… Think of Rome, paying tribute to the Goths in exchange for not invading. They thought, well it’s kind of a nuisance, but we can afford it, so whatever…. and then one year, the river freezes and Alaric and his buddies walk over it and say, Yeah, guess what? this year, we’re not leaving….

    • Randy Thompson says:

      How long will America last?

      Who’s version of America?

      Again, history: Pagan (!) Rome lasted a thousand years.

      • Anonymously Yours says:

        I think America may split up into parts. If the federal government falters because of brinkmanship politics coupled with a failing economy, it isn’t unthinkable it would no longer have the funds to enforce its laws on the states. And most state and local politicians have their own ideas about how to run a country. So while some politicians in D.C. would claim legitimacy and say state citizens have the duty to follow federal law, I think the locals would see the writing on the wall and declare, formally and informally, that the federal government no longer has any claim on their obedience.

        The Roman Empire split into two. The Byzantine Empire lasted much longer than the Western Empire. As years went on, some, like Charlemagne, attempted to revive the Roman Empire, just as some would try to revive America as the Fifty States. And the various parts of the fallen America…the Northeast, the South, the West…no doubt will have those demagogues who claim their flavor is the true embodiment of America.

        Well…I’m off to watch Gravity in IMAX 3D. Carry on.

    • It’s not that drastic to think that America will end. Or at least go into decline. It’s more like this guy has a track record of prophetic tomfoolery, and so does the entire culture and tradition he belongs to. All you have to do is say something like “I believe such and such, based on x, y, and z…” but no, it has to a Prophecy (TM) down from the holy mountain of Churches Still Experiencing Signs and Wonders (TM).

      Attributing every other thing you say to God is clever sleight-of-hand for silencing any dissent before it happens, not to mention a license to preen in front of the mirror each day. You really can say whatever the hell you want in these circles, as long as you wave your hands around and shake a lot while your doing it. Let’s not forget that this guy trumpeted Todd Bentley as “the next Apostle Paul.” Face it, it’s a racket full of self-absorbed lunatics who think the church is their cash cow.

      What exactly is a “noble” military seizure of government that “restores the Constitution” anyway? No chance there are any oxymorons in there, eh?

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

        Let’s not forget that this guy trumpeted Todd Bentley as “the next Apostle Paul.”

        I was unaware that the Apostle Paul kicked anyone in the nuts under orders from his pet channeled angel Emma…

        What exactly is a “noble” military seizure of government that “restores the Constitution” anyway?

        A Junta that agrees 1000% with MEEEEEE, of course.

  15. What Americas governent needs is a simple dose of kindness and grace sprinkled with a bit of common sense..the military takeover would just be an extension of the current political climate. Su much anger and suspicion between the parties, so tired of it..

  16. Headless Unicorn Guy says:

    oyner also predicted an “inevitable” collapse of the U.S. dollar but said it could lead to a jubilee—a new beginning if the right people are in leadership.

    Right People? The Joint Chiefs of Staff or the Holy Commanders of Gilead?

    “This time We Will Achieve True Communism, because this time The Right People will be in leadership, Comrades!”

  17. Funny how it escapes these guys that after Jesus’ time on earth, there is no more talk (in the Bible) of God using land (nation) as a mode or method to bring about his purpose. Israel is no longer chosen or protected. Instead, Christians are called to go live in their countries and practice Christianity there. Even if it means death.

    In the old covenant, salvation came through the Israeli people and their religion. In the new covenant, God sets up a new Kingdom that is *not of this world*

    • Good comments, but it might be more accurate to say that Israel is still a big deal, but it’s not the same (physical/ethnic) Israel. The church is now the “true” Israel of GOD. Where’s my kevlar suit and faceshield….??

  18. Um, isn’t this the plot to the Episodes 1,2,3 in the Star Wars universe?

  19. I’m tired of people waving their dog-eared copies of “A Handmaid’s Tale” while they fulminate about “Dominionism” in American politics. That book, and the scenario it suggests, is just a bogeyman for the secular exclusionist left. The real danger to this country is the one warned by a certain French observer visiting this country over 200 years ago when he said something to the effect that when Americans discovered that they could vote themselves money then democracy would begin to crumble.

    When we look at a government whose representatives continue on the economic path of “What, me worry?” Alfred E. Newman policies, and utopian dreams of governmental paternalism, THEN we will all eat the bitter fruit of that tree. Gilead? Never happen…COULDN’T happen. I believe in “trickle down economics”…when the government spends stupidly then hard times “trickle down” to the average person.

    Christianity is full of stupid political ideas, none of which are “mainstream”, despite the wobbly-kneed alarmists protestations. We are called to live a life of sacred simplicity, gathering together to worship the Father and triune God, to love one another, and to be salt and light in a dark world, influencing those in our immediate circle of acquaintances and awaiting the Blessed Hope.

    Reading the posts these past couple of days has given me a sour stomach. I think I’ll take a short vacation to let it settle.

  20. “I am not advocating this….”
    O baloney! The NAR’s/cultural warrior’s/dominionist’s/Left Behind cultist’s secret dream from day one has been some kind of ‘takeover’ of the gov because they know if some cultural warrior, bible thumping armed forces general(s) were to undemocratically seize power and impose martial law – THEN they and all the cultural war ilk with them would very quickly fill all the seats of power where ‘heathen RINO’s and Dems once sat…. and then the fatherland could be purified and brought “back to God”…

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      …if some cultural warrior, bible thumping armed forces general(s) were to undemocratically seize power and impose martial law – THEN they and all the cultural war ilk with them would very quickly fill all the seats of power where ‘heathen RINO’s and Dems once sat…. and then the fatherland could be purified and brought “back to God”…

      Just like Iran.
      Except a Godly Christian(TM) Republic instead of a Godly Islamic Republic.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      AKA Joyner’s involved in a role-playing game called “Future Commanders of Gilead”.

      I wonder if he has a Commander’s Uniform in his closet for cosplay at cons? With a matching Handmaid’s dress and scarf for his wife to cosplay with him?

  21. Mayor McGuinness says:

    Funny how when pentecostals relate what God spoke to them in these “prophecies” God’s voice always comes off sounding like the voice of Bob Dole. Being reminded that most pentecostal/charismatic types that I’ve known tend to literalist in everything Bible/God spoken, I have to wonder if any Gap stores have recently reported any “fools for Jesus” setting up “hedges” amongst their displays. Actually, a “beaver damn” would most likely get more heathen’s attention.

    On a serious note, it is easy to mock these people. I do it all the time but I don’t feel good about it. I grew up in a church environment that espoused this mentality. I had a youth pastor who led a sermon on how any female who had an abortion should be executed (and he was dead serious). I have heard all manner of “prophecies” and calls for “renewal” usually ending or involving some kind of imprecatory statement toward “those who would tear down this Christian nation.” From the vantage point of the agnostic that I have become over the years I watch and listen to members of my family still spouting this line of thinking and carping on about how God has removed his hand of protection/is summoning a new awakening (depending on their mood at the time). Yeah, it’s easy to mock. I mock them. I believe they deserve it and yet it brings me no joy to do so. While I can’t honestly say that I believe in the metaphysical aspects of the Gospel, I can say that I am deeply drawn to what Christ preached and lived in those stories. Maybe one day I’ll believe the more spectacular aspects of the narrative too, but for now I am simply trying to understand why Jesus would save the adulterous woman or why he would spend time with the dregs of society when he didn’t have to; when instead, he could have just raised up a holy army and slaughtered the wicked and those who didn’t live up the holy writ of the Law (or hinted that free markets and consumerism might have a downside due to human involvement).

    I wish Jesus had written our Constitution. If he had it would have been a much different document perhaps. It might have made explicit mention of the fact that, “sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but don’t worry, your kingdom ain’t here y’all. It ain’t worth gettn’ all worked up cause I ain’t gonna come down nere and slay no one if they don’t dig your hedge, yo!”

    Anyway, just my clumsy two cents for the day before coffee. Been reading this blog for ages and miss Michael Spencer’s voice so much. You guys have done a great job since and I continue to enjoy the insights all of you provide. Cheers!

    • Yeah…it makes me sad too… their spiritual/religious energy could be used by God in so many better ways…

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      Funny how when pentecostals relate what God spoke to them in these “prophecies” God’s voice always comes off sounding like the voice of Bob Dole.

      Bob Dole? Not a Mid-Atlantic accent with the Reverb cranked to the max?

      I am simply trying to understand why Jesus would save the adulterous woman or why he would spend time with the dregs of society when he didn’t have to; when instead, he could have just raised up a holy army and slaughtered the wicked and those who didn’t live up the holy writ of the Law (or hinted that free markets and consumerism might have a downside due to human involvement).

      Because (unlike His Reconstructionist/Dominionist Prophets) Christ didn’t REALLY know what was REALLY going on.

  22. Mayor McGuinness says:

    One more thing (Columbo style),

    I have to wonder how lucky that tax collector was to run into Jesus when he did before Jesus went all American Nationalist Dominionist. Got to think American Constitutional Conservative Jesus would have created a special level of Hell for that poor guy on the spot.

  23. “What is the Lord saying to you about the hour we’re in?”

    Right, cause the Lord just speaks routine prophecies to everyone about “the hour we’re in.” Everyone get on board! You too can have a word from God!!!

    Actually scratch that, I’m holding out for the “Great Endtimes Transfer of Wealth.” Bring it on!!

    • Why is LORD telling me to get my mind off all this end-of-the-world nuttiness and 1)get to work….@work that is; 2)love my wife in ways she understands; 3) love those around me, esp. if they tend to be unlovable

      and that was the same stuff HE told me LAST week….. and the week before that….

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      Right, cause the Lord just speaks routine prophecies to everyone about “the hour we’re in.” Everyone get on board! You too can have a word from God!!!

      Don’t you know the Book of Revelation was written in a Sooper Sekrit Code (AKA “Occult Gnosis”) for 20th Century Dispensationalists and nobody else?

  24. I once read an interesting article examining how, precisely, one could “take over” the federal government in military-coup-style way. Unsurprisingly, the military leaders who were interviewed unanimously said they had their hands full with military matters — the idea of having to run everything appalled them on practical grounds almost as much as on the constitutional grounds that they’ve all sworn to uphold and take with deadly seriousness.

    But what was more interesting about the article was that it just seems almost impossible to do anyway. Power is diffuse enough (unlike in Russia’s Kremlin) and the government is big enough (unlike in a small country) that a small cabal sinply can’t take over in any practical sense. You can’t just Occupy the White House and call it a day. It doesn’t work that way.

  25. (Didn’t stay under my rock very long…)

    Two words: Nut. Bar.

    Also, these folks should be happy to not live under the OT prophetic law, otherwise we could stone them when they’re (inevitably) proven wrong.

    I still rankle when I see charismatics declare prophesies in every dream and the “hand of God” in every circumstance and coincidence; four years around it in college was more than enough of a dose to get me through the rest of my years.

    • Yep (on all counts; I was in some crazy parts of the charismatic movement back in the day, and later brushed shoulders with one too many NAR adherents – in D.c., no less. Yikes!!!)

    • To be honest, I *was* a fairly crazy charismatic myself, for a number of years, when I was in my late teens-mid 20s. to which I can only plead youth and lack of life experience as the reason behind it (for me).

      Most charismatics I knew at that time were quite utopian, and so was I… like so many young people, ever since the world began.

      • These guys were AoG (ChiAlpha when they’re at a college campus), so most of them were pretty tame as far as the wacky stuff went, but I’m from a Baptist upbringing. I only ended up in their ranks because this particular group did a great job at attracting freshmen and sophomores, and also a good job at hiding the fact that they were actually an AoG sponsored group (one of the many reasons that I left them with a bad taste in my mouth.)

        I’m not as familiar with these NAR/Third Wave (which just makes me think of New Wave, by the way) sorts; from what it looks like they were much sleepier until the last decade, and I might have just missed them (college was some ten years ago now for me). I went to a pretty liberal school in CA, so I doubt that the NAR-types would be well tolerated, though from how our College Republicans behaved… Hey, maybe that’s where they all were! Haha.

        • ah, but California is where a *lot* of this stuff originated; Fuller Theological Seminary, to be exact. C. Peter Wagner, who has led the charge, taught there for a good while.

      • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

        We talking run-of-the-mill prophecy weirdness or have we hit the “Invisible Starship” level?

        Shortly after my college days, an AoG bud of mine somehow got a Special Revelation or Declaration of Prophecy that God was going to give him an invisible starship and he’d fly it off leaving Earth forever. One night he walked over to a nearby park where his invisible starship was waiting and didn’t surface until the next morning. (And if he had flown off, I would have been the last guy to see him alive. Murder Rap Paranoia Time.) Things can get decidedly WEIRD when Declarations of Prophecy are in play.

        “But CREEPY THINGS happen in the Middle of Nowhere!”
        — Courage the Cowardly Dog opening credits

  26. Might be futile to give the usual “We’re not all that way” comment here, but I’ll give it a shot nonetheless.

    Prophecy happens in my church. Specifically, those of us who believe we hear from God, make statements to our fellow Christians about what we believe God told us.

    Thus far in my experience, meaning 100 percent of the time, these prophecies have had nothing to do with the future of the United States, or future politics, or national-level circumstances. Or predicted earthquakes or fires or tornadoes or any such thing. Not that we don’t believe God forewarns people about such things, as he did in the bible. It just hasn’t come up yet.

    What are our prophecies about, then? Exhortation to do the right thing. Encouragement to keep on doing the right thing. Comfort when we’re stressed, or have doubts or worry. Confirmation that what God’s told us, he’s told others. Challenges to stretch our faith. You know, what the vast majority of the prophecies in the bible consist of.

    The purpose of prophecy, as Paul pointed out in 1 Corinthians, is to build up the church. It’s not to tear the nation a new one. True prophets get this. Fake prophets, by comparison, try to act like Amos, and pronounce judgment upon the church’s neighbors. But what they’re really doing is filling in all the gaps in their knowledge with their prejudices.

    And if the nation is headed towards disaster, what should they then be doing? What sort of fruit should they produce? ‘Cause fruit is important. If a man has prophecies and knowledge, but lacks fruit… well, you know.

    But it’s a simple answer: The fruit of the Spirit is compassion for the sheep who lack a shepherd. These prophets should be trying to help their neighbors. They should be ministering to the needy as much as possible, in the hopes that they can save as many as possible before disaster strikes. They should be creating Joseph-level social programs to prepare for the worst. True prophets care about those whom they prophesy to.

    As God demonstrated many times in scripture, sometimes he’s willing to undo his first proclamation. (Like that to Moses about destroying the Hebrews, or to Jonah of Nineveh’s destruction, or to Isaiah of Hezekiah’s death, or to Habakkuk about a few of his visions.) A fruitful prophet will never discourage hope. A fruitless prophet, like Jonah, will—and God will delight in undermining them, as he did Jonah, because he ultimately doesn’t want to destroy anyone. He only wants people to repent and be saved.

    • I don’t see the NAR people as representative of *all* charismatics – I know they’re not.

      But they represent a fringe social-political movement that has driven itself right into the heart of the American political process, and that’s scary.

    • K.W.L. ;

      Exactly. Thank you for the observations.

      Speaking from experience, when a group of folks become enamoured with the gift (prophesy) they then begin to steadily inject their false selves into it. Train wreck.

    • Headless Unicorn Guy says:

      Unfortunately, KW, “Prophecy” has come to mean Divination, Foretelling the Future and Foretelling the Future alone.

  27. FS, Silent No More says:

    Rick Joyner. Chuck Pierce. Bill Johnson and Bethel Church. Todd bentley. Durch Sheets. And plenty more. All coming under the general heading of “N.A.R.” it’s amazing how much of a hold this movement has gotten on churches that not all that long ago would have been considered vanilla evangelical (and not even charismatic at that). I’ve been to a number of clearly N.A.R. influenced events (including one featuring one of their more prominent Prophet/Apostles) in my part of the country (would rather not identify where, but let’s just say it’s not exactly in the Bible Belt) and it’s not just the independent Pentecostal holyroller churches that are caught up in this, but even BGC, E Free, and yes even descended-from-the-Puritans 4C churches that are, as some snarkier friends might say, drinking from the NAR Kool-Aid. And part of the appeal, imho, is the promise of taking over those Seven Mountains of society (of which government is just one) and taking dominion: Yes, the kingdom is coming, and we’ll be little kings. We’ll win by winning, as Chap Mike said the other day. (Oh, and Chap Mike: Re your comment about “There’s a cross hanging front and center in my church that begs to differ” In one church I’ve been two, the front-and-center cross gets covered up by a screen on which they project the lyrics to the 7-11 praise songs du jour that pass for “worship.” Talk about symbolism….)