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	<title>Comments on: 12 Churches, 12 Calvinists</title>
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	<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists</link>
	<description>...dispatches from the post-evangelical wilderness</description>
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		<title>By: Regular Baptist</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-2#comment-458359</link>
		<dc:creator>Regular Baptist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jesus turned the culture on its ear with his teachings. The gospel turned the world on it&#039;s ear. They both reacted violently. When will we learn that it is about the gospel regardless of what the culture says. As a calvinist, my theology does not excuse me from following Jesus and spreading the gospel. When will we learn that the culture is sick (not only in appalachia). These churches are already dead, &quot;fixing&quot;them is a waste of time. The SBC is lost in a &quot;christian culture social club&quot;. Armed with education (a god of the culture) many of these young pastors will simply engage in the same broken techniques to convert the masses through some new, trendy or CCM based salesmanship which after years of practice has produced the mess the church is in today. When the REAL gospel is lived &amp; communicated, real impact on the culture will result. But the culture will also react violently. We are too connected to our money, jobs &amp; stuff to really care. The elephant in the room is the church really does not care for the lost, we simply create the illusion to pat ourselves on the back &amp; tell Jesus what a great job we are doing. We have our monuments to ourselves and they are emptying fast. When living &amp; spreading the gospel becomes authentic the world will then be impacted. The early church did not try to fix the culture, it replaced it with personal community. When the urgency of reaching the lost &amp; the reality that people are lost every second of every day motivates the church to throw our stuff aside for precious souls, then the church will again assault the culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesus turned the culture on its ear with his teachings. The gospel turned the world on it&#8217;s ear. They both reacted violently. When will we learn that it is about the gospel regardless of what the culture says. As a calvinist, my theology does not excuse me from following Jesus and spreading the gospel. When will we learn that the culture is sick (not only in appalachia). These churches are already dead, &#8220;fixing&#8221;them is a waste of time. The SBC is lost in a &#8220;christian culture social club&#8221;. Armed with education (a god of the culture) many of these young pastors will simply engage in the same broken techniques to convert the masses through some new, trendy or CCM based salesmanship which after years of practice has produced the mess the church is in today. When the REAL gospel is lived &amp; communicated, real impact on the culture will result. But the culture will also react violently. We are too connected to our money, jobs &amp; stuff to really care. The elephant in the room is the church really does not care for the lost, we simply create the illusion to pat ourselves on the back &amp; tell Jesus what a great job we are doing. We have our monuments to ourselves and they are emptying fast. When living &amp; spreading the gospel becomes authentic the world will then be impacted. The early church did not try to fix the culture, it replaced it with personal community. When the urgency of reaching the lost &amp; the reality that people are lost every second of every day motivates the church to throw our stuff aside for precious souls, then the church will again assault the culture.</p>
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		<title>By: M Clinton MS</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-2#comment-455756</link>
		<dc:creator>M Clinton MS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 02:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists#comment-455756</guid>
		<description>I am a convert to the Southern Baptist Church and live in Mississippi.  I was raised Methodist until my mid 20&#039;s, but had no formal indoctrination in Methodist theology.  I have studied extensively (though informally) Calvinism and Reformed thought, mainly because the university I attended had an attractive and healthy Reformed Youth program.  Though I have come to agree with some of it&#039;s points, it never fully took, as I couldn&#039;t reconcile the limited atonement with the Christ I knew.  Anyway, as I was not brought up in the Southern Baptist Church, I am not fully aware of the controversey surrounding the 1979 &quot;Happening&quot; (for lack of a better description) at the SBC.  Could someone fill me in, or direct me to a neutral site/books on the subject?

Also, to add my opinion to the above:  Since most SB churches are still very congregationalist, wouldn&#039;t the people know that these were Calvinist pastors and so probably not hire them in the first place?

Thanks for listening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a convert to the Southern Baptist Church and live in Mississippi.  I was raised Methodist until my mid 20&#8217;s, but had no formal indoctrination in Methodist theology.  I have studied extensively (though informally) Calvinism and Reformed thought, mainly because the university I attended had an attractive and healthy Reformed Youth program.  Though I have come to agree with some of it&#8217;s points, it never fully took, as I couldn&#8217;t reconcile the limited atonement with the Christ I knew.  Anyway, as I was not brought up in the Southern Baptist Church, I am not fully aware of the controversey surrounding the 1979 &#8220;Happening&#8221; (for lack of a better description) at the SBC.  Could someone fill me in, or direct me to a neutral site/books on the subject?</p>
<p>Also, to add my opinion to the above:  Since most SB churches are still very congregationalist, wouldn&#8217;t the people know that these were Calvinist pastors and so probably not hire them in the first place?</p>
<p>Thanks for listening.</p>
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		<title>By: John Warren</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-2#comment-252616</link>
		<dc:creator>John Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists#comment-252616</guid>
		<description>What’s going to happen?
I don&#039;t know.  &quot;I don&#039;t know&quot; is a theological statement.  God can do anything, and often likes to surprise us.

What could happen?
If the new pastors are faithful, they will preach the word well.  If they&#039;re faithful *and* risk-takers (which I believe is *really* part of being faithful), they&#039;ll also allow for some spirit-led experiences (like organized sessions of prayer for each other, words of knowledge, etc.).

What won’t happen?
I don&#039;t know.  Another theological statement.

&quot;Will it work? Can these churches be turned around?&quot;
What does &quot;work&quot; mean?  One day, over 10,000 people were following Jesus.  The next day, Jesus successfully narrowed that down to 12.  Jesus considered pruning as necessary as watering.  Or, as Dr. Gene Scott liked to put it, &quot;Elimination is as necessary as assimilation.&quot;
What will be the key factors in success or failure?
Again, what is success or failure?  How do you measure it?  These men, if they take some steps to love and identify with the sheep they&#039;re going to serve and lead, may reach the hearts of their new congregations.  The congregants, for their part, may have renewed interest in digging in deep into the Word, and seeing what it really says, and letting their traditions be challenged.

My prediction:  4 responses from the congregation.  Some will say, &quot;What are these guys saying?  Doesn&#039;t make sense.&quot;  This response might include a (not physical) violent resistance to change.  Others will say, &quot;These guys are great!&quot; but when they see the changes that are required of their way of life, will soon resist and go back to the way things have always been done.  Others will take longer to reach the same state.  Others will be whole-hearted and embrace the good changes that the new guys are bringing in.  Whether the following comes about in a permanent way in the community is another matter:  Better theology, better church life, less in-bred-ness, more ministry to the needy in their area, more cohesive community life while at the same time being more welcome to outsiders, more Scripture-based supernatural activity.  There might not be enough of a critical mass of good soil to maintain a change. 

Will it work?
Are these the men to do it?
If God calls them, yes.  If not, no.
What this really all depends on is if this is God&#039;s will or not.  When it was God&#039;s will for the Israelites to go into the promised land (Numbers 13), they would have succeeded, though the odds against them looked great.  But just one chapter later, when the people revealed their stiffnecked attitude, God said he would no longer be with them in going into the promised land.  Nothing had changed in 1 chapter--nothing but the potential outcome.  This is what makes me wary of measuring success by some simple external standard (though I suppose one of the reasons you started this post is to stimulute such a discussion).  
Or what about a single man, Elijah, hanging out with a widow.  That&#039;s kind of suspicious.  And he takes advantage of her, saying &quot;feed the prophet&quot;, even though she&#039;s about to starve.  But Elijah was just the person God picked to help her, and he helped her big time.  Would I have chosen Elijah for this task?  Would you?

Your question could have been equally posed if you replaced reformed-type pastors with Clark Pinnock or Greg Boyd type pastors, and I would have answered similarly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What’s going to happen?<br />
I don&#8217;t know.  &#8220;I don&#8217;t know&#8221; is a theological statement.  God can do anything, and often likes to surprise us.</p>
<p>What could happen?<br />
If the new pastors are faithful, they will preach the word well.  If they&#8217;re faithful *and* risk-takers (which I believe is *really* part of being faithful), they&#8217;ll also allow for some spirit-led experiences (like organized sessions of prayer for each other, words of knowledge, etc.).</p>
<p>What won’t happen?<br />
I don&#8217;t know.  Another theological statement.</p>
<p>&#8220;Will it work? Can these churches be turned around?&#8221;<br />
What does &#8220;work&#8221; mean?  One day, over 10,000 people were following Jesus.  The next day, Jesus successfully narrowed that down to 12.  Jesus considered pruning as necessary as watering.  Or, as Dr. Gene Scott liked to put it, &#8220;Elimination is as necessary as assimilation.&#8221;<br />
What will be the key factors in success or failure?<br />
Again, what is success or failure?  How do you measure it?  These men, if they take some steps to love and identify with the sheep they&#8217;re going to serve and lead, may reach the hearts of their new congregations.  The congregants, for their part, may have renewed interest in digging in deep into the Word, and seeing what it really says, and letting their traditions be challenged.</p>
<p>My prediction:  4 responses from the congregation.  Some will say, &#8220;What are these guys saying?  Doesn&#8217;t make sense.&#8221;  This response might include a (not physical) violent resistance to change.  Others will say, &#8220;These guys are great!&#8221; but when they see the changes that are required of their way of life, will soon resist and go back to the way things have always been done.  Others will take longer to reach the same state.  Others will be whole-hearted and embrace the good changes that the new guys are bringing in.  Whether the following comes about in a permanent way in the community is another matter:  Better theology, better church life, less in-bred-ness, more ministry to the needy in their area, more cohesive community life while at the same time being more welcome to outsiders, more Scripture-based supernatural activity.  There might not be enough of a critical mass of good soil to maintain a change. </p>
<p>Will it work?<br />
Are these the men to do it?<br />
If God calls them, yes.  If not, no.<br />
What this really all depends on is if this is God&#8217;s will or not.  When it was God&#8217;s will for the Israelites to go into the promised land (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&amp;q=Numbers+13" class="bibleref" title="ESV Numbers 13">Numbers 13</a>), they would have succeeded, though the odds against them looked great.  But just one chapter later, when the people revealed their stiffnecked attitude, God said he would no longer be with them in going into the promised land.  Nothing had changed in 1 chapter&#8211;nothing but the potential outcome.  This is what makes me wary of measuring success by some simple external standard (though I suppose one of the reasons you started this post is to stimulute such a discussion).<br />
Or what about a single man, Elijah, hanging out with a widow.  That&#8217;s kind of suspicious.  And he takes advantage of her, saying &#8220;feed the prophet&#8221;, even though she&#8217;s about to starve.  But Elijah was just the person God picked to help her, and he helped her big time.  Would I have chosen Elijah for this task?  Would you?</p>
<p>Your question could have been equally posed if you replaced reformed-type pastors with Clark Pinnock or Greg Boyd type pastors, and I would have answered similarly.</p>
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		<title>By: Bobsnotmyuncle</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-2#comment-214511</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobsnotmyuncle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists#comment-214511</guid>
		<description>Blagh, soz.  &quot;fight about an *un*important issue.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blagh, soz.  &#8220;fight about an *un*important issue.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bobsnotmyuncle</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-2#comment-214510</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobsnotmyuncle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists#comment-214510</guid>
		<description>I can tell you what happened in one church in a neighboring state.

People continued coming as before.  Most of them thought the preaching was excellent, but, after a time, began to wonder about the pastor&#039;s lack of excitement for traditional activities.

Members who believed strongly in the church&#039;s mandate to use their wealth in ministry to the poor ultimately became discouraged because of the pastor&#039;s desire to keep the church free from such encumbrances; so, they left to find a church that would accept their offerings and channel them as they desired they be channeled.

Miracle of miracles, a few adults became believers and were baptized.  Some were ecstatic about this, but the majority just assumed that God did it for His own reasons, and, more concerned about the lack of enthusiasm during worship services, from the pulpit, and in consultation with the pastor.

Ultimately, the church began to fight over a relatively important issue, and the young pastor returned to seminary to study *more*.

Names omitted to protect the guilty, but forgiven.  Personally, I&#039;m still trying to figure it all out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can tell you what happened in one church in a neighboring state.</p>
<p>People continued coming as before.  Most of them thought the preaching was excellent, but, after a time, began to wonder about the pastor&#8217;s lack of excitement for traditional activities.</p>
<p>Members who believed strongly in the church&#8217;s mandate to use their wealth in ministry to the poor ultimately became discouraged because of the pastor&#8217;s desire to keep the church free from such encumbrances; so, they left to find a church that would accept their offerings and channel them as they desired they be channeled.</p>
<p>Miracle of miracles, a few adults became believers and were baptized.  Some were ecstatic about this, but the majority just assumed that God did it for His own reasons, and, more concerned about the lack of enthusiasm during worship services, from the pulpit, and in consultation with the pastor.</p>
<p>Ultimately, the church began to fight over a relatively important issue, and the young pastor returned to seminary to study *more*.</p>
<p>Names omitted to protect the guilty, but forgiven.  Personally, I&#8217;m still trying to figure it all out.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-2#comment-203307</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 21:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists#comment-203307</guid>
		<description>Well, the church will fight.  This is what occurred in our church.  We helped start the small church we are in.  My husband eventually agreed to fill the pulpit but he let the congregation know he was Reformed. 

At first they didn&#039;t care. They just wanted a pastor and could only pay $500.00 a month.

Then they told him he couldn&#039;t preach reformed messages.  They held a business meeting to see if they wanted him gone. 

We are still there preaching reformed messages.  No one has left.  They are slowly growing in knowledge.

Blessings,
Karen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the church will fight.  This is what occurred in our church.  We helped start the small church we are in.  My husband eventually agreed to fill the pulpit but he let the congregation know he was Reformed. </p>
<p>At first they didn&#8217;t care. They just wanted a pastor and could only pay $500.00 a month.</p>
<p>Then they told him he couldn&#8217;t preach reformed messages.  They held a business meeting to see if they wanted him gone. </p>
<p>We are still there preaching reformed messages.  No one has left.  They are slowly growing in knowledge.</p>
<p>Blessings,<br />
Karen</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-2#comment-192238</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists#comment-192238</guid>
		<description>Sir, you don&#039;t need to wonder what will happen. I&#039;ve seen the results in Southern California. The church attendance either will drop like a rock, or it will become a cult-like gathering of 10 people. Doctrinal Calvinism can work only if preached by a pastor with true people skills and a heart for the community. Otherwise, it&#039;s just a lecture for people who appreciate Berkhof and Calvin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sir, you don&#8217;t need to wonder what will happen. I&#8217;ve seen the results in Southern California. The church attendance either will drop like a rock, or it will become a cult-like gathering of 10 people. Doctrinal Calvinism can work only if preached by a pastor with true people skills and a heart for the community. Otherwise, it&#8217;s just a lecture for people who appreciate Berkhof and Calvin.</p>
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		<title>By: waddey</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-2#comment-191492</link>
		<dc:creator>waddey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 04:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists#comment-191492</guid>
		<description>Marshall, 

I can see what you are saying but I think you are applying your own experience to broadly.  &quot;That kind of church is meant by God Himself to be a stepping stone for new pastors.  Using it as a stepping stone is the right thing to do&quot;.  I can&#039;t go along with that.  In what way was this church not good for you, your family, or the church?  Based on that philosophy you have stayed at your current church 3 years too long.  In my opinion it is generally helpful for a pastor to have a long intentional tenure at a church no matter what size it is.  Burrying oursleves in a mega church is just as rotten as burrying ourselves in a small rural church.  Burried is burried.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marshall, </p>
<p>I can see what you are saying but I think you are applying your own experience to broadly.  &#8220;That kind of church is meant by God Himself to be a stepping stone for new pastors.  Using it as a stepping stone is the right thing to do&#8221;.  I can&#8217;t go along with that.  In what way was this church not good for you, your family, or the church?  Based on that philosophy you have stayed at your current church 3 years too long.  In my opinion it is generally helpful for a pastor to have a long intentional tenure at a church no matter what size it is.  Burrying oursleves in a mega church is just as rotten as burrying ourselves in a small rural church.  Burried is burried.</p>
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		<title>By: Marshall</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-2#comment-190638</link>
		<dc:creator>Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists#comment-190638</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve pastored two churches in the past 30 years.  I stayed 13 and 1/2 years at the first one, in a small town in North Carolina, about 40 members.  This was a mistake.  I stayed too long.  It wasn&#039;t good for me, my wife, my kids, or the congregation.  Oh, we had good fellowship, the Word was preached, children were brought up to know the Lord, we did VBS, missions and so on.  But that sort of church is meant by God Himself to be a stepping stone for new pastors.  Using it as a stepping stone is the right thing to do.  God needs good pastors with some experience to move into wider fields of influence, and burying yourself in the country isn&#039;t good for anyone:  the church, your family, and yourself.  It makes no difference if you are a Calvinist or not.  Preach the Gospel, and move on after a few years.  Everyone, including the little country church, will do better with that scenario.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve pastored two churches in the past 30 years.  I stayed 13 and 1/2 years at the first one, in a small town in North Carolina, about 40 members.  This was a mistake.  I stayed too long.  It wasn&#8217;t good for me, my wife, my kids, or the congregation.  Oh, we had good fellowship, the Word was preached, children were brought up to know the Lord, we did VBS, missions and so on.  But that sort of church is meant by God Himself to be a stepping stone for new pastors.  Using it as a stepping stone is the right thing to do.  God needs good pastors with some experience to move into wider fields of influence, and burying yourself in the country isn&#8217;t good for anyone:  the church, your family, and yourself.  It makes no difference if you are a Calvinist or not.  Preach the Gospel, and move on after a few years.  Everyone, including the little country church, will do better with that scenario.</p>
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		<title>By: waddey</title>
		<link>http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists/comment-page-1#comment-190547</link>
		<dc:creator>waddey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/12-churches-12-calvinists#comment-190547</guid>
		<description>I am a rural pastor in West TN.  I preach through books verse by verse.  I am 1 point away from being a full blooded Calvinist and have been here for about 4 years with little controversy.  My mentor told me years ago that a pastor earns respect just like every one else does.  I don&#039;t expect this congregation to fall all over themselves to follow a pastor who does not love them.  I pick my battles wisely and fight battles that are brought to me.  I don&#039;t pick fights unworthy of fighting.  If you think your position, your doctrine, or your methods alone will get the job done you will be gone.  Most, not all, but most rural churches simply need long intentional tenures from a pastor to get them back on track.  You can not turn the titanic on a dime and you can&#039;t turn a dying church around with one dose of antibiotic.  A church doesn&#039;t need a king it needs a shepherd.  

Great Blog!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a rural pastor in West TN.  I preach through books verse by verse.  I am 1 point away from being a full blooded Calvinist and have been here for about 4 years with little controversy.  My mentor told me years ago that a pastor earns respect just like every one else does.  I don&#8217;t expect this congregation to fall all over themselves to follow a pastor who does not love them.  I pick my battles wisely and fight battles that are brought to me.  I don&#8217;t pick fights unworthy of fighting.  If you think your position, your doctrine, or your methods alone will get the job done you will be gone.  Most, not all, but most rural churches simply need long intentional tenures from a pastor to get them back on track.  You can not turn the titanic on a dime and you can&#8217;t turn a dying church around with one dose of antibiotic.  A church doesn&#8217;t need a king it needs a shepherd.  </p>
<p>Great Blog!</p>
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